I was told my file had been sent across town and they were waiting for it to be returned. But it had been found.
How does the USCG ever take over DP certification and turn it into legal endorsement? As someone already said, the client calls the shots. Certified DP operators are what clients want. The NI is not a legal body whatsoever, just a recognized gold standard of all things DPO.
The Q4000 (US Flag) COI listed 2 DP operators under manning requirements in 2007. How was this even enforceable? One Govt agency recognizing the certification (which required no written/recorded tests of any kind) of a non govt agency located in another country that appears not to be party to any thing such as STCW or MLC?! I am not even sure whether it said certified or just DP operator, but still don’t see how it is enforceable. Does this exist for OSVs in GOM? Only been on 2 boats now, but no such req on either COI. Can anybody tell me about this for other boats, especially 300’ plus???
WTF?
What are they going to do, take over all 8 or so DP schools in US and just starting telling them what to do? At least 3 or 4 of the schools here love their distance away from the NI and probably worry every day the NI is going to send a spy to their school and witness the pitiful classes they are running. All those schools will fight this tooth and nail unless it is a way to raise tuition in tandem.
As it is now, the NI is looking to seriously reduce the number of accredited DP centers around the globe. Schools they approved but yet realize are running half ass programs.
This issue is DIW for years to come. It will probably be more likely to happen if BSSE/BOEM make it some condition of permit issuance for drillers and ancillary supporters working OCS. But that still wouldn’t change an MMC.
Who knows, maybe they would be more efficient than WV???
[QUOTE=tugsailor;133554]Should an unaccountable private organization in Europe with terrible, extremely slow, customer service be allowed to dictate who is qualified to work in America?
He’ll no![/QUOTE]
exactly!!
so now you a have a local organisation ( working for the vessel owners) that will give the tickets away like confetti to anyone and lower your wages and once again make you internationally unemployable.
Charters want low cost and high standards or do they just want a piece of paper that says competent but who decided that?
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[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;133638]How does the USCG ever take over DP certification and turn it into legal endorsement? As someone already said, the client calls the shots. Certified DP operators are what clients want. The NI is not a legal body whatsoever, just a recognized gold standard of all things DPO.
The Q4000 (US Flag) COI listed 2 DP operators under manning requirements in 2007. How was this even enforceable? One Govt agency recognizing the certification (which required no written/recorded tests of any kind) of a non govt agency located in another country that appears not to be party to any thing such as STCW or MLC?! I am not even sure whether it said certified or just DP operator, but still don’t see how it is enforceable. Does this exist for OSVs in GOM? Only been on 2 boats now, but no such req on either COI. Can anybody tell me about this for other boats, especially 300’ plus???
WTF?
What are they going to do, take over all 8 or so DP schools in US and just starting telling them what to do? At least 3 or 4 of the schools here love their distance away from the NI and probably worry every day the NI is going to send a spy to their school and witness the pitiful classes they are running. All those schools will fight this tooth and nail unless it is a way to raise tuition in tandem.
As it is now, the NI is looking to seriously reduce the number of accredited DP centers around the globe. Schools they approved but yet realize are running half ass programs.
This issue is DIW for years to come. It will probably be more likely to happen if BSSE/BOEM make it some condition of permit issuance for drillers and ancillary supporters working OCS. But that still wouldn’t change an MMC.
Who knows, maybe they would be more efficient than WV???[/QUOTE]
Clearly a DP ticket will end up in the hands of the flag states via the IMO and it will just be part of your ticket like ECDIS etc BUT then the endorsement has to follow a COI/min manning requirement on a vessel and that is fraught with all sorts of problems IMHO hence it has not yet happened.
Do you really think OMSA did all this without feeling out their customers? I could be wrong, but i see no way they would go through all this without making sure the big oil companies will likely accept it. Especially if they have a hand in writing the regulations to their standards.
One thing, even if the NI sucks, is that you guys had a DP cert recognized globally, now, potentially not so much.
[QUOTE=z-drive;133649]1. Do you really think OMSA did all this without feeling out their customers? I could be wrong, but i see no way they would go through all this without making sure the big oil companies will likely accept it. Especially if they have a hand in writing the regulations to their standards.
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One thing, even if the NI sucks, is that you guys had a DP cert recognized globally, now, potentially not so much.[/QUOTE]
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you mean like that Norwegian scam where that thought they would make millions from the new system by trashing the NI and it was a fail with the Oil majors… DOH major egg on face.
But that was a system hatched by people that sell simulators and this one is hatched by people that have to pay the crew…mmmmm? -
Yes you need to do a very good job to remove the incumbent that has been there for 25+years so thats 24yrs without complaints and its an organisation that only works for crew which is looking more and more like a unique operation, yes?
saying that
I do understand that the NI process had become a bottle neck and they should of responded better and sooner and they had absolutely no excuse, when this funds the NI and not the other way around
You do know that its only in the US that there is a problem with Jan 1 2012 NI requirements to get a license and that requirement was put there by the IMO who the US is a signatory to ( well almost)
if all else fails buy a single share in an oil major you can ask difficult questions at the AGM and publish them, especially if its a global player
Powerabout is right. DP is going to end up as an IMO / STCW required license endorsement.
When Norway got sick of the NI’s bumbling they started a competing DP system. Norway did not fail, DNV and the NI are merging their DP certification programs. DNV has as eat at the table. Why shouldn’t the USCG or ABS have a seat at the table?
NI is making big money on DP certification. OMSA and the US schools and DP equipment makers want in on this bonanza.
No big developed country should surrender its sovereignty and allow the neocolonists at the NI to control which of a country’s own citizens allowed to work in their home country.
DNV does what with the NI??
PS most of the DP manufacturers are American arent they?
Every country can have home trade tickets under STCW-95 and the US issues the most of these in the world, weather an oil major ( and its shareholders) can understand that standard is another issue.
Imagine how the non Engrish speaking world thought when they all have to do their marine tickets in English ( supposedly) for pretty much anything over 500t at home?
Surely the 3rd world unlimited license holders are laughing at GoM 6000t “[I]I dont want to be dictated by the UN IMO body[/I]” OSV licence holders?
oh look that wasnt the licence holders was it, it was the greedy vessel owners after all!!
Think where this conversation will be in the few years if license control/standards continue to go the same way, the GoM with US crew will be the cheapest place for an oil major to operate and you wont have the qualifications to escape
One thing that has been mentioned a few times that to me is a minor issue is being restricted as a DPO. While that will most likely be the case with the OSVDPA certificate (similar to OSV restricted licenses), it does not prevent mariners from working towards the Nautical Institute certificate as well. The good thing about these potential alternative certificates is that the NI has had to take a hard look at their certification process to ensure that it can meet industry needs. I don’t know the best answer but the competition should be a good thing. We will see what the NI comes out with supposedly this month.
[QUOTE=dredgeboater;133692]One thing that has been mentioned a few times that to me is a minor issue is being restricted as a DPO. While that will most likely be the case with the OSVDPA certificate (similar to OSV restricted licenses), it does not prevent mariners from working towards the Nautical Institute certificate as well. The good thing about these potential alternative certificates is that the NI has had to take a hard look at their certification process to ensure that it can meet industry needs. I don’t know the best answer but the competition should be a good thing. We will see what the NI comes out with supposedly this month.[/QUOTE]
What the new system is all about is getting a ticket for non licensed mariners on non classed DP vessels, in other words people that are not eligible to have a ticket under the IMO mandated NI regime.
These 2 issues are only issues in the GoM
Now think to whose benefit is this???
I have no dog in this fight (now), just saying I found It unlikely that they would do this without the oil companies somewhat included. As you said the other attempt was a fail with the majors; that would avoid that problem if the majors were consulted in the planning phase.
basic economics here folks…
increasing the supply of a commodity causes costs for that commodity to fall
don’t believe for one minute that OMSA is doing this for anything but in the interests of their member companies which means the profits of their members
bet the OMSA version of becoming a DPO is going to be half the NI version and companies will self certify and print the paper certs in the laser printer in the HR office!
[QUOTE=c.captain;133701]basic economics here folks…
increasing the supply of a commodity causes costs for that commodity to fall
don’t believe for one minute that OMSA is doing this for anything but in the interests of their member companies which means the profits of their members
bet the OMSA version of becoming a DPO is going to be half the NI version and companies will self certify and print the paper certs in the laser printer in the HR office![/QUOTE]
probably right, aren’t these systems easier to operate than the certification is to get? if they are, and the companies are paying for paper, they are going to water it down.
[QUOTE=seacomber;133703]probably right, aren’t these systems easier to operate than the certification is to get? if they are, and the companies are paying for paper, they are going to water it down.[/QUOTE]
thats true re a mariners license as well.
plenty of people I know could run a PSV without a license.
plenty of yards could build a boat not to class
( some people are making vessels and DP systems not to class after all)
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soon( a few years) you wont need the Jones act as the GoM industry will be of a lower standard and lower pay than anywhere else in the world…
Some will be cheering some will be crying
Good evening gentlemen,
Long time listener, first time caller here. As indicated by my profile, my name is Aaron Smith and I am the Executive Director of the OSVDPA.
I just wanted to briefly post here to thank everyone in their interest in the Authority and its work. One of our main goals at OSVDPA is to provide a responsive and user friendly alternative to existing DPO certification systems. Thus, my email is included on my profile, please feel free to contact me at any time with questions, concerns, comments, or criticism. We understand that our DPO certification system will only be successful if it supported by the mariner, thus, we welcome your comments and will do our best to ensure your concerns are answered.
First, I want to assure everyone that the OSVDPA has no intentions of degrading safety or lessening the standards of DPO certification. As many above have noted, our system will only be useful if it accepted by the oil majors, and they will not accept anything that does not meet or exceed the level of competency set by the Nautical Institute. Thus, it does us no favors to lay out a system that isn’t at least as rigorous as the NI system.
But we don’t want to just meet the NI standard, we aim to improve upon it. One of the ways we intend to improve upon the NI’s system is by requiring both experience (sea-time) and the passing of assessments (think of this as a blending of the NI and DNV schemes). In our mind, experience is of vital importance, but experience does not automatically equal competency (I’m sure many of you can think of examples of this fact). Over the course of the last year, we have discussed this philosophy with the oil majors, industry associations, and the Coast Guard and they are in general agreement that a mix of experience and assessments are necessary.
That said, we will prove a pathway toward DPO certification for those who have been excluded from the NI scheme. In our mind, there are hundreds of mariners that use DP technology on a daily basis that because of the vessel they serve on or the paper in their binders cannot access a NI DPO certificate. Such requirements do the mariners no favor and are doing nothing to improve safety in our industry. Whether the NI likes it or not, these mariners will continue to operate DP systems, as such, we believe we must include them in our system to ensure they receive proper training and can be certified as safe operators of DP systems.
Second, I want to very clearly state, the OSVDPA will not create employment restrictions. We are here to provide an option for mariners, As an option (as opposed to a monopoly), we have to be attractive to mariners. I don’t need to tell anyone on this forum that mariners hate fences and career dead ends. Considering this fact, building fences would lessen our attractiveness and our ability to succeed as a certification system. For this reason, the informal working group that created the OSVDPA started to have conversations with the NI and DNV about reciprocal recognition of each others certificates last summer. These conversations are continuing and will continue until the OSVDPA is able to ensure that every OSVDPA certificate holder is able to take that certificate and work anywhere their license credential allows them to work.
I promised you I’d be short, so I’ll only make one more point. We are not OMSA. The OSVDPA has a separate Board of Directors, By-Laws, and is registered under different Articles of Incorporation with the Louisiana Secretary of State. Moreover, our By-Laws require that our Board of Directors must have representatives of training providers on the Board at all times.
Again, thank you for your time and your feedback. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments, and I look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Aaron Smith
This is a good thing for mariners on a non-class DP vessel that cannot get NI certification because they are not recognized. RIght now the only thing this mariner can receive is an “awareness” certificate showing he has attended some sort on non certified training using DP. This now enables those DP operators, that may never get to a classed DP vessel, a chance to get a DP certification. This is great! Yes, there are complaints on this, especially from those who had to sit and struggle through the NI scheme. NI is reducing their seatime. Just happens to match OMSA sea time requirements. This new certification opens many avenues for the mariner coming into the DP community. So good on OMSA. And no it won’t be easy for a cook to become DP! You still have requirements to adhere too.
Long time listener, first time caller here. As indicated by my profile, my name is Aaron Smith and I am the Executive Director of the OSVDPA.
I just wanted to briefly post here to thank everyone in their interest in the Authority and its work. One of our main goals at OSVDPA is to provide a responsive and user friendly alternative to existing DPO certification systems. Thus, my email is included on my profile, please feel free to contact me at any time with questions, concerns, comments, or criticism. We understand that our DPO certification system will only be successful if it supported by the mariner, thus, we welcome your comments and will do our best to ensure your concerns are answered.
First, I want to assure everyone that the OSVDPA has no intentions of degrading safety or lessening the standards of DPO certification. As many above have noted, our system will only be useful if it accepted by the oil majors, and they will not accept anything that does not meet or exceed the level of competency set by the Nautical Institute. Thus, it does us no favors to lay out a system that isn’t at least as rigorous as the NI system.
But we don’t want to just meet the NI standard, we aim to improve upon it. One of the ways we intend to improve upon the NI’s system is by requiring both experience (sea-time) and the passing of assessments (think of this as a blending of the NI and DNV schemes). In our mind, experience is of vital importance, but experience does not automatically equal competency (I’m sure many of you can think of examples of this fact). Over the course of the last year, we have discussed this philosophy with the oil majors, industry associations, and the Coast Guard and they are in general agreement that a mix of experience and assessments are necessary.
That said, we will prove a pathway toward DPO certification for those who have been excluded from the NI scheme. In our mind, there are hundreds of mariners that use DP technology on a daily basis that because of the vessel they serve on or the paper in their binders cannot access a NI DPO certificate. Such requirements do the mariners no favor and are doing nothing to improve safety in our industry. Whether the NI likes it or not, these mariners will continue to operate DP systems, as such, we believe we must include them in our system to ensure they receive proper training and can be certified as safe operators of DP systems.
Second, I want to very clearly state, the OSVDPA will not create employment restrictions. We are here to provide an option for mariners, As an option (as opposed to a monopoly), we have to be attractive to mariners. I don’t need to tell anyone on this forum that mariners hate fences and career dead ends. Considering this fact, building fences would lessen our attractiveness and our ability to succeed as a certification system. For this reason, the informal working group that created the OSVDPA started to have conversations with the NI and DNV about reciprocal recognition of each others certificates last summer. These conversations are continuing and will continue until the OSVDPA is able to ensure that every OSVDPA certificate holder is able to take that certificate and work anywhere their license credential allows them to work.
I promised you I’d be short, so I’ll only make one more point. We are not OMSA. The OSVDPA has a separate Board of Directors, By-Laws, and is registered under different Articles of Incorporation with the Louisiana Secretary of State. Moreover, our By-Laws require that our Board of Directors must have representatives of training providers on the Board at all times.
Again, thank you for your time and your feedback. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments, and I look forward to working with you.
Sincerely,
Aaron Smith
Aaron,
Thank you for posting to give us an idea about who you and OSVDPA are. When should ex expect to have a solid scheme in place and know the requirements?
Captaint76
[QUOTE=tugsailor;133659]Powerabout is right. DP is going to end up as an IMO / STCW required license endorsement.
When Norway got sick of the NI’s bumbling they started a competing DP system. Norway did not fail, DNV and the NI are merging their DP certification programs. DNV has as eat at the table. Why shouldn’t the USCG or ABS have a seat at the table?
NI is making big money on DP certification. OMSA and the US schools and DP equipment makers want in on this bonanza.
No big developed country should surrender its sovereignty and allow the neocolonists at the NI to control which of a country’s own citizens allowed to work in their home country.[/QUOTE]
The NI are not merging their scheme with anybody elses, here is a direct quote from their web page.
“Contrary to some reports, there are no plans to merge our DP Operator training scheme with any other scheme.”
I also struggle to see how the NI is making any money, let alone big money from what you say. The only money the NI charges the applicant is for the postage to return the documents by courtier. So I fail to see exactly where they make their money from, it seems to me that they are mostly doing it because they were the only ones willing to do it back in the day. If they did charge money for applications it may be a good thing as they maybe they would be able to provide a better service by hiring more staff and decreasing processing times.
Another quote:
“It is a not-for-profit scheme administered by The Nautical Institute - a Registered Charity (No.1002462).”
[QUOTE=Aaron Smith;133743]
That said, we will prove a pathway toward DPO certification for those who have been excluded from the NI scheme. In our mind, there are hundreds of mariners that use DP technology on a daily basis that because of the vessel they serve on or the paper in their binders cannot access a NI DPO certificate. Such requirements do the mariners no favor and are doing nothing to improve safety in our industry. Whether the NI likes it or not, these mariners will continue to operate DP systems, as such, we believe we must include them in our system to ensure they receive proper training and can be certified as safe operators of DP systems.
[/QUOTE]
Who exactly is being excluded from the NI dp training scheme? Cooks and the messman?
The minimum qualification for the DP scheme is set at STCW Regulation II/1 - II/2 - II/3 Deck and Regulation III/1 - III/2 - III/3 Engine.
Any scheme that doesn’t set this as the minimum standard is destined to fail, the NI minimum standard doesn’t go far enough in fact, the NI system allows for engine room certified personnel to become DPOs.
It defies common sense to allow somebody who doesn’t have officer of the watch deck licence to be in charge of a vessel.
The 100 ton crewboat captains and mini OSV captains even though their vessels are in most cases DP2. Their licenses are not STCW.