As I read the discussion on the El Faro, the subject of ships that are running with out of date equipment such as unenclosed liftboats, steam plant, etc…, came about and the first ship that came to mind for me was the Empire State. After an incident such as this will it be time for the DoT and MarAd to finally purchase SUNY a new training ship?Buying one is the first step, then they need to convert it if it isn’t a newbuild. So we will be looking at nearly 3-5 more years of the TSES-VI being in service at a bare minimum. As sad as the El Faro story is, I hope it brings change to parts of the industry in this regard to old out of date vessels.
That thing is a floating death trap. Can you imagine if there was some catastrophic incident at night when most people are asleep in the holds. Imagine being in weather, even just moderate rain and anything greater then 20ft seas at night, and a collision or serious grounding occurs. I know we did emergency drills almost every day but I can’t fathom how a real life response to that emergency would unfold.
It’s certainly time for a new one.
[QUOTE=Smee;170349]As I read the discussion on the El Faro, the subject of ships that are running with out of date equipment such as unenclosed liftboats, steam plant, etc…, came about and the first ship that came to mind for me was the Empire State. After an incident such as this will it be time for the DoT and MarAd to finally purchase SUNY a new training ship?Buying one is the first step, then they need to convert it if it isn’t a newbuild. So we will be looking at nearly 3-5 more years of the TSES-VI being in service at a bare minimum. As sad as the El Faro story is, I hope it brings change to parts of the industry in this regard to old out of date vessels.[/QUOTE]
Same as Mass’s ship. Antique piece of shit. Maine and Cal are a couple decades behind, but not too much.
[QUOTE=Smee;170349]As I read the subject of ships that are running with out of date equipment such as steam plant, etc…[/QUOTE]
There is nothing “out of date” about a steam plant. The decline in steam propulsion was strictly due to economic factors, not technology. As newer environmental regulations come into effect you’ll see more. A lot of LNG tankers are steam plants as well, and they are very high tech.
All the academy ships are obsolete junk with very poor lifesaving gear. Sailing on those academy vessels bears little resemblence to sailing an a modern commercial ship. The academies should get rid of their expensive old ships and move to less expensive and more relevant cadet shipping on commercial ships.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;170406]All the academy ships are obsolete junk with very poor lifesaving gear. Sailing on those academy vessels bears little resemblence to sailing an a modern commercial ship. The academies should get rid of their expensive old ships and move to less expensive and more relevant cadet shipping on commercial ships.[/QUOTE]
How would you cram 600 cadets on a tug or OSV?
As the the immediate tragedy of the El Faro passes, it is the time to strike and get appropriate Members of Congress to add a new training ship or two to the next authorization/appropriation bill. Tragedy can be politically useful.
Cal’s ship seems in good shape, with proper equipment onboard…
A&M had a great ship with the Clipper 2. Than Marad, in their wisdom took it away and gave us the Sirius… which got condemned by the CG. Marad, again in their wisdom gave us the huge Cape Gibson that was to be converted. After much money spent, and leaving it with us to fix up for a few years, they took it away to rot, saying it wasn’t worth the investment. Again, marad than decided to give us the comically small TS General Rudder, saying we “we are lucky to have it”. With a program the size of the biggest maritime academies, this was a joke as well. I will never forgot their arrogance, as they came to our campus to do a speech, basically bashing the academies all together, saying we are lucky to even receive help from them. Is this not their job, to strengthen the US Maritime field? What a joke they are! They spend tons of money on toy model ships in their offices while the school, and safety of mariners suffer. I will never forget their attitude from that day. The TS General Rudder holds about 60 total, breaks down often, is dangerously slow, and only has life rafts, and no life boats. A&M should be first on the list, with SUNY. We desperately need new ships.
[QUOTE=weski;170528]As the the immediate tragedy of the El Faro passes, it is the time to strike and get appropriate Members of Congress to add a new training ship or two to the next authorization/appropriation bill. Tragedy can be politically useful.[/QUOTE]
Screw that waste of money. Just go to cadet shipping. It’s better and it costs nothing.
if anything they could use some stuff the size of the KP ship to do shorter coastwise trips with smaller groups for formal training, and then do the majority on commercial ships. Make it mandatory every company take a certain number of cadets every year based on how many vessels they operate, employees, Tonnage of fleet, whatever you want to break it up by. Make it mandatory though, and no bullshit physicals etc.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;170537]Screw that waste of money. Just go to cadet shipping. It’s better and it costs nothing.[/QUOTE]
I disagree. I’ve seen too many cases of cadets not getting a fair shake because they aren’t at the same alma mater as the ship’s senior officers. I’ve also seen many cases of cadets getting the shaft because the officer’s they’re assigned to are just too damn busy to answer the questions that really should have been covered in school. I’m all for cadets on commercial ships, but I don’t think it should be the sole source of their underway training.
If an academy is going to have a ship, it should be a working commercial ship with extra facilities for a few cadets and a couple of instructors at a time.
It might make sense to offer construction subsidies to commercial ships that build in facilities for a dozen cadets and a couple of instructors.
it would make sense for an academy to partner with a state ferry system, like the Alaska Marine Highway.
Of course an academy should have a couple of tugboats, a couple of barges, a DP-2 OSV, and a fleet of other small boats.
I believe the Dutch government paid “Big Lift” or “Jumbo” shipping to add a second training bridge and classrooms to at least one of the companies’ new builds. They have dedicated teachers aboard for the cadets. The cadets are able to get training in both an academy and commercial setting. I would imagine they have a lot less cadets each year going through the program then the U. S., but it is an interesting idea.
[QUOTE=Louisd75;170585]I disagree. I’ve seen too many cases of cadets not getting a fair shake because they aren’t at the same alma mater as the ship’s senior officers. I’ve also seen many cases of cadets getting the shaft because the officer’s they’re assigned to are just too damn busy to answer the questions that really should have been covered in school. I’m all for cadets on commercial ships, but I don’t think it should be the sole source of their underway training.[/QUOTE]
On the 6 ships that I sailed on as a cadet way back in the olden days, I never really had an issue with getting a “fair shake”. I did have one Chief Engineer that didn’t like ANY cadets, so I just buckled down and worked my ass off. . . in the long run, isn’t THAT what cadet shipping is about? To me, it was more than just learning the ropes about engineering. . . it was also about the social interaction of the crew. . . I mean, what would be the difference from signing on a ship with one’s license and not having any fellow alumni onboard? Hell, by the time I first signed on a ship with my shiny new license, I had already sailed on 6 different ships and worked on 5 completely different plants. . . . many foreign flag operators have some kind of cadet or apprenticeship program for their officers. . . The US is unique in that there are so many government operated/subsidized academies that feed commercial fleets, let alone the current state of the US flag fleet, but that is the topic of another thread. . . . .
[QUOTE=Louisd75;170585]I disagree. I’ve seen too many cases of cadets not getting a fair shake because they aren’t at the same alma mater as the ship’s senior officers. I’ve also seen many cases of cadets getting the shaft because the officer’s they’re assigned to are just too damn busy to answer the questions that really should have been covered in school. I’m all for cadets on commercial ships, but I don’t think it should be the sole source of their underway training.[/QUOTE]
I had an experience similar to that on my first cadet trip, but I channeled that frustration into my work, and by the end of the trip I was accepted.
My First Assistant tells me I am ‘harder’ on the cadets from my Alma Mater than I am on the cadets from other schools. I think he is right.
[QUOTE=btm;170598]I believe the Dutch government paid “Big Lift” or “Jumbo” shipping to add a second training bridge and classrooms to at least one of the companies’ new builds. They have dedicated teachers aboard for the cadets. The cadets are able to get training in both an academy and commercial setting. I would imagine they have a lot less cadets each year going through the program then the U. S., but it is an interesting idea.[/QUOTE]
This is an excellent training model that MARAD should at least try out with a pilot project on one ship.
[QUOTE=cmakin;170653]On the 6 ships that I sailed on as a cadet way back in the olden days, I never really had an issue with getting a “fair shake”. I did have one Chief Engineer that didn’t like ANY cadets, so I just buckled down and worked my ass off. . . in the long run, isn’t THAT what cadet shipping is about? To me, it was more than just learning the ropes about engineering. . . it was also about the social interaction of the crew. . . I mean, what would be the difference from signing on a ship with one’s license and not having any fellow alumni onboard? Hell, by the time I first signed on a ship with my shiny new license, I had already sailed on 6 different ships and worked on 5 completely different plants. . . . many foreign flag operators have some kind of cadet or apprenticeship program for their officers. . . The US is unique in that there are so many government operated/subsidized academies that feed commercial fleets, let alone the current state of the US flag fleet, but that is the topic of another thread. . . . .[/QUOTE]
I suspect that you, as well as I, went into the cadet shipping with a different mentality than what I’ve been running across regularly in the past five years. I’ve had a few cadets that thought as you and I did, where we get onto the ship and bust our butts getting done what we needed to get done. I’ve had numerous cadets that didn’t want to work more than eight hour days, that complained that the job was too hard, that wanted to be spoon fed the answers to their projects even though the maker’s plates hadn’t been painted over (yet) and the manuals were sitting on the shelf right behind them. Very little initiative or work ethic. It’d be nice if we could weed most of those types out before they ever set foot out in the industry, and I think that the training ship is useful in that regard.
I do like the idea of onboard classes and students with instructors on a “real” working merchant ship. I don’t mind helping those who want to learn and apply themselves, but ultimately we should not be babysitters.
As far as the current ships, what about updating the lifesaving equipment, turning lower berthing spaces into cargoholds and sending the ships out on PL480 stuff, rotating out students with every return to the states?
[QUOTE=Louisd75;170750]I suspect that you, as well as I, went into the cadet shipping with a different mentality than what I’ve been running across regularly in the past five years. I’ve had a few cadets that thought as you and I did, where we get onto the ship and bust our butts getting done what we needed to get done. I’ve had numerous cadets that didn’t want to work more than eight hour days, that complained that the job was too hard, that wanted to be spoon fed the answers to their projects even though the maker’s plates hadn’t been painted over (yet) and the manuals were sitting on the shelf right behind them. Very little initiative or work ethic. It’d be nice if we could weed most of those types out before they ever set foot out in the industry, and I think that the training ship is useful in that regard.
I do like the idea of onboard classes and students with instructors on a “real” working merchant ship. I don’t mind helping those who want to learn and apply themselves, but ultimately we should not be babysitters.
As far as the current ships, what about updating the lifesaving equipment, turning lower berthing spaces into cargoholds and sending the ships out on PL480 stuff, rotating out students with every return to the states?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, if anything, my Sea Project suffered because I wanted to absorb as much as I could being on board. . . . by actually working. . .
Some excellent ideas. My only observation is the Academies need some sort of vessel to train when taking classes. During my time at TMA we did 4 hours of maintenance per week, every week for our entire time there. Other training includes monthly in-port watches (obviously not cargo watches, but a good foundation), practical labs depending on the class, constant training groups onboard and so forth. There was never a time the ship was not being used. For me this seemed invaluable and a essential tool during the semester when not underway for almost all aspects of the academy. As with most, much of the academies are structured around their ship.
On a side note, the TS General Rudder ended up being moved to Beaumont during hurricane season because it was so slow and unreliable, they didn’t want to risk it in Galveston, leaving the cadets chipping parking lot stops for maintenance…
Personally I like the idea some have broached in Congress along the lines of a National Response Vessel (forget the actual wording). Basically a proposal to build a number of multi-purpose ships that are equipped to respond to oil spills, and natural disasters, and whatever other emergency may spring up stateside, and simultaneously be used as training platforms for the respective academies. A truly multi-purpose vessel could fulfill many roles for the nation. I think its pie-in-the-sky dreaming to think it would actually come to fruition, but I like the idea.