New Regulations for OSV

My beef is that every time a thread starts to discuss regulations on this site, C.Captain and ect. roll in with their opinions and it is always GOM mariners have ruined the license structure. I say again Boo Hoo Hoo. If union representation is so great then why do people cry about non union industry. We seem to be compensated well above union wages in the GOM. Pensions are a thing of the past get over it and start an IRA. Or start your own company with C Captain and you can give pensions to your employees. Now to get back on topic, I want you to share any rumors on regulations affecting the OSV industry. To be clear, affecting the OSV, not shipping, industry.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;145091]I know this has been covered, I haven’t paid attention. What’s the beef? Is it the C/M duties on an OSV are not comparable to a deep-sea C/M?[/QUOTE]

To get Master Unlimited the “traditional” way (which has not been the only way for at least 15 years, I’ll get to that), you needed to progress from 3rd Mate to 2nd Mate to Chief Mate to Master, a total of 6 years of sea time with at least 3 of it on vessels over 1,600 GRT (3,000 GT) and at least 6 months of the total as Chief Mate.

Under this (not) new progression, it appears that you can get Master Unlimited by going to Mate OSV to Chief Mate (OSV) to Master Unlimited, a total of 4 years of sea time, with at least 6 months on vessels over 1,600 GRT/3,000 GT and at least 6 months as Chief Mate. The 6 months as Chief Mate does not have to be on vessels over 1,600 GRT/3,000 GT.

This is not new, it was not created with the December, 2013 rule change. The requirements for Master Unlimited have been the way they are since the mid-80s. At that time, the only vessels over 1600 GRT were “unlimited” vessels (not OSVs). The mid 1980s change to Master unlimited added a requirement for time as Chief Mate, but, perhaps through a lack of clairvoyance, did not specify the tonnage of the vessels that Chief Mate service had to be on. But since at the time there were no OSVs over 3,000 GT, the only way to sail on a vessel over 1,600 GRT was to hold an unlimited license and thus it had no immediate consequence.

The path to Master Unlimited became available when OSVs first exceeded 3,000 GT and when the Coast Guard started issuing endorsements for OSVs over 3,000 GT. [I] This was about 1999, not 2013[/I]. Licenses for OSVs over 3,000 GT were being issued for many years before the December, 2013 rule change provided for OSV licenses for over 3,000 GT. Prior to 1999, the only way to meet the requirement that half of your time for an unlimited license had to be over 1,600 GRT was to hold an unlimited license and get that time. When we started issuing endorsements for OSVs over 3,000 GT (in 1999) it became possible to meet this requirement with an OSV license and not an “unlimited” license.

So, it appears there is a possible path to Master Unlimited that does not require progreession through the unlimited license scheme, but it’s not new.

[QUOTE=Number360;145099]My beef is that every time a thread starts to discuss regulations on this site, C.Captain and ect. roll in with their opinions and it is always GOM mariners have ruined the license structure. I say again Boo Hoo Hoo. If union representation is so great then why do people cry about non union industry. We seem to be compensated well above union wages in the GOM. Pensions are a thing of the past get over it and start an IRA. Or start your own company with C Captain and you can give pensions to your employees. Now to get back on topic, I want you to share any rumors on regulations affecting the OSV industry. To be clear, affecting the OSV, not shipping, industry.[/QUOTE]

FUCK THIS! I have been in this industry for more than three decades long before there were Large OSVs and ATBs everywhere. We used to have ships with ship sized crews to do the work but today, these abominations which are the size of ships are being run with crews much smaller and who do not have to get all the same certification. They are also not being operated like a ship but a boat. This only serves the companies! Smaller crews to do the same work makes them more profits…PERIOD!

I do not blame mariners for the deals they have gotten although I do not like it. I think the old system of needing seatime on “merchant ship” was a requisite to get a license to command one and I am pissed that this is all now turned on its head with these new policies…PARDON ME ALL TO HELL FOR MY OPINION!

And also pardon me all to hell for believing in pensions and benefits too… Only a fool wants to work for a company for decades but not get squat in return while the owners become billionaires! I simply cannot believe how obtuse y’all are…IDIOTS!

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;145091]I know this has been covered, I haven’t paid attention. What’s the beef? Is it the C/M duties on an OSV are not comparable to a deep-sea C/M?[/QUOTE]

yes, they are quite a bit different…in fact the job as a second captain on a 3001grt OSV vs chief mate on a 36000grt product tanker or a 22000grt car carrier or a 75000grt LMSR or any other merchant ship is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! Night and day in fact!

Having been on all of them, I know from personal experience which some of you feel doesn’t qualify me to have my opinions…

well EXCUSE THE HELL OUT OF MEEEEE!

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I’m sure what’re meant was that you have given your opinion already. We heard you, but you seem to want to go on and on about it. Companies adapt to make money in changing business environments and their employees have to adapt too. Things change. Get over it and adapt or get out of the way. Technology has made everything we do and every industry require less people. That’s called progress grandpa C. Cappy. Maybe it’s time to hang up your epaulets and go tell sea stories at the local bar…

[QUOTE=TugNtow;145106]I’m sure what’re meant was that you have given your opinion already. We heard you, but you seem to want to go on and on about it. Companies adapt to make money in changing business environments and their employees have to adapt too. Things change. Get over it and adapt or get out of the way. Technology has made everything we do and every industry require less people. That’s called progress grandpa C. Cappy. Maybe it’s time to hang up your epaulets and go tell sea stories at the local bar…[/QUOTE]

The only thing I don’t understand about all this is…

WTF is “what’re” ???

[QUOTE=TugNtow;145106]I’m sure what’re meant was that you have given your opinion already. We heard you, but you seem to want to go on and on about it. Companies adapt to make money in changing business environments and their employees have to adapt too. Things change. Get over it and adapt or get out of the way. Technology has made everything we do and every industry require less people. That’s called progress grandpa C. Cappy.[/QUOTE]

All progress is NOT ALWAYS GOOD! Especially if is is socalled progress which in fact makes the worker less critical to the operation because if he is less important what do you think Joe Boss will do with that situation? USE IT TO HIS BENEFIT!

Its economics. When it was profitable companies built and operated a huge American shipping fleet. When it became unprofitable, say about the time the Unions came on the scene and pensions began paying out, companies stopped building and moved many marine jobs foreign. Now we have been given a second chance as mariners as the OSV industry has emerged. All the older generation mariners can’t seem to admit the failure of American shipping and insist we take the OSV industry the same direction which destroyed their industry. No thank you.

Joe Boss’s in the bayou are billionaires because they operate massive fleets and make good business decisions. I don’t fault them for making money, much of it goes right back int the business of building these next generation OSV’s. If you could fill me in on what other jobs you can make 50k your first year and 180k by your 4th year and do it with a HS education and hard work please let me know. If you can’t use some of that money to save for retirement then that is your problem.

As far as mariners in the OSV industry. There is no comparisons to driving a car carrier from point A to point B. It is a high tonnage vessel that takes years of experience to learn. But, bigger does not always mean tougher to learn. As a supply or construction or specialty vessel OSV you must learn a mind boggling array of different operations. From anchor handling to product transfers to DP operation/certification to ROV operations to offshore cargo handling to lightering support and even driving the boat from point A to point B. So to say a OSV operator should not be able to achieve UL Master should not even be an argument. Maybe the argument should be that before you can get a UL Master you should show proficiency in OSV operations.

[QUOTE=Number360;145110]Maybe the argument should be that before you can get a UL Master you should show proficiency in OSV operations.[/QUOTE]

fine…I am lowering myself in arguing with you so you win, OSV mariners are the only truly proficient mariners out there, Look at the awesome job they did on the AIVIQ there Brownie!

I am out…I will not keep battling such a narrow minded bunch who refuses to see how they are playing right into Joe Boss’s hand. If any of you think for one minute that there a single OMSA member company cares about their workforce more than profits then they can step right up and prove me wrong but I think I will be waiting a good long time. Forever in fact,

If you would like to compare failures in the OSV to shipping industry’s I would take you up on that challenge. Although the AIVIQ was certainly a fail it would pale in comparison to Exxon Valdez.
So fill us in on the C. Captain compensation plan. Does it pay better than Joe Boss in the bayou? Is it an 8 hour workday? Certainly it has health benefits, 401k, and pension. What union are you going with?

[QUOTE=Number360;145110]Its economics. When it was profitable companies built and operated a huge American shipping fleet. When it became unprofitable, say about the time the Unions came on the scene and pensions began paying out, companies stopped building and moved many marine jobs foreign. Now we have been given a second chance as mariners as the OSV industry has emerged. All the older generation mariners can’t seem to admit the failure of American shipping and insist we take the OSV industry the same direction which destroyed their industry. No thank you.

Joe Boss’s in the bayou are billionaires because they operate massive fleets and make good business decisions. I don’t fault them for making money, much of it goes right back int the business of building these next generation OSV’s. If you could fill me in on what other jobs you can make 50k your first year and 180k by your 4th year and do it with a HS education and hard work please let me know. If you can’t use some of that money to save for retirement then that is your problem.

As far as mariners in the OSV industry. There is no comparisons to driving a car carrier from point A to point B. It is a high tonnage vessel that takes years of experience to learn. But, bigger does not always mean tougher to learn. As a supply or construction or specialty vessel OSV you must learn a mind boggling array of different operations. From anchor handling to product transfers to DP operation/certification to ROV operations to offshore cargo handling to lightering support and even driving the boat from point A to point B. So to say a OSV operator should not be able to achieve UL Master should not even be an argument. Maybe the argument should be that before you can get a UL Master you should show proficiency in OSV operations.[/QUOTE]

Clearly, American flag ships are no longer profitable because of unions. And that is why with the exception of dare I say, Polar, Sea River, and Chevron, all US ships are at least 2/3 if not 100% union manned. If there is some random 1 or 2 vessels or super obscure shipper I missed, I profusely fucking apologize.

Every 3-5 yrs, (sometimes less, sometimes more) for decades and decades now the vessel operators have had the chance to throw off those damn union “shackles.” And yet where are we? They sign the contracts they do b/c their bean counters have determined that the contracts are still profitable. No matter the vessel, be it OSV, ship, MODU, ATB, whatever, we get paid what we do b/c the owner/operator is making A LOT more. Doesn’t bother me a bit.

That last part probably doesn’t sit well with CC, but fine. Nobody ever asked to me chip in for the vessel’s mortgage payments.

But the idea that unions and pensions outsourced US mariners and shrunk the fleet is absurd.

Bad decisions and the younger generation’s apathy at Lykes killed one of the world’s largest shipping companies. Corruption and fraud in ODS and CDS wiped out a lot of monies that shippers could have used to build anew. OPA 90 laws alone led to mass scrappings of product and crude tankers that were still more than adequate and safe enough to continue in petroleum based trade for at least 10 or so years. The investigations and heavy inspections laid out by USCG after the Marine Electric tragedy (POS was by all accounts was not seaworthy) laid waste to many a WW II to early 60s vessels that were most certainly past their prime and in need of scrapping or a shipyard period that was not cost effective. Many tankers in 80s were lost due to oil market fluctuations, just like GOM oil patch work plumetting. The export of Mexican molten sulphur laid waste to a few US flag sulphur carriers charters that became no longer profitable. The Waterman LASHs went bye bye in the early 2000s b/c the LASH trade died off.

We had an inflated merchant marine for decades that was steeped in WW II era vessels and break bulk ships that were ill suited for the coming of containerization. Where do unions and pensions come in to play here? They don’t. Did the MMP, MEBA, MFOW, SUP, and SIU have anything to do with APL’s purchase by NOL? No. Even though it was POS AMO, did Seabulk take all 3 of their completely non-union tankers and go union in the mid 90s b/c it was unprofitable? No. Were the LNGs (Gemini, etc.) running from Japan to Indonesia and Borneo in the 80s and 90s with MEBA / SIU and Then AMO /SIU unprofitable? No.

Old man Crowley, by all accounts from every guy I’ve sailed with whom started with Crowley out west in SF Bay and the PNW , was a great guy who was pro labor and pro union and was running one of the largest vessel owner /operators (tugs/barges/ships) in the whole of USA. His punk ass kids are the POS running things for some time now.

We don’t build or repair ships as cheaply as China, Singapore, or Korea. If we did, then Horizon and Matson and APL wouldn’t send their ships their for yard periods. You can’t even pay Mexican illegals in the US what Bangladeshis or Pakistanis get paid in the Middle East ports, or Indonesians in Singapore, or the Cambodians working 12hr shifts on the McDermott DB50 last month in the US GOM ($20/day).

MLL is not really a US company. With the exception of the 2 or 3 USWC MLL vessels, there are no more Sea-Land built vessels engaged in foreign trade. Poppa Maersk has brought in/ swapped out all the others under US Flag and US unions b/c it is profitable. Yeah, it is MSP, but who gives a shit. It’s in the black and it’s union.

So once again, how and when did unions make US Flag shipping so unprofitable?

[QUOTE=Number360;145110] As far as mariners in the OSV industry. There is no comparisons to driving a car carrier from point A to point B. It is a high tonnage vessel that takes years of experience to learn. But, bigger does not always mean tougher to learn. As a supply or construction or specialty vessel OSV you must learn a mind boggling array of different operations. From anchor handling to product transfers to DP operation/certification to ROV operations to offshore cargo handling to lightering support and even driving the boat from point A to point B. So to say a OSV operator should not be able to achieve UL Master should not even be an argument. Maybe the argument should be that before you can get a UL Master you should show proficiency in OSV operations. [/QUOTE]

I have yet to see a single mate on any OSV I’ve worked abd, let alone the boats I’m tied up to, actively participate in product transfers (in port / at sea) as in line-up, connect, DOIs, commence, soundings, finish, blow down, disconnect. Same goes for inspecting lashings during and after cargo ops, in transit, etc. The Engineers do one and the ABs / OSs do the other. How does driving the boat up to a rig/platform/MODU (whether you are doing DP or not) and then staying on the bridge the entire time = offshore cargo handling? We drive boats, answer base radios, fill out paperwork, do a few PMs, deal with SOLAS/FF gear, and DP. Where is the hands on cargo work in any of that?

This is not a license argument. I’m just trying to understand some of these things you say OSV mates are doing that I have yet to see. I don’t think my employer is different than any other 1600GRT/3000 ITC boat operator/owner.

We have had this specific conversation about these OSV mate duties on this forum before, and even one of CC’s biggest opponents (Chief at HOS) admitted as much about OSV mates and cargo. Especially liquid / bulk.

[QUOTE=Number360;145099]My beef is that every time a thread starts to discuss regulations on this site, C.Captain and ect. roll in with their opinions and it is always GOM mariners have ruined the license structure. I say again Boo Hoo Hoo. If union representation is so great then why do people cry about non union industry. We seem to be compensated well above union wages in the GOM. Pensions are a thing of the past get over it and start an IRA. Or start your own company with C Captain and you can give pensions to your employees. Now to get back on topic, I want you to share any rumors on regulations affecting the OSV industry. To be clear, affecting the OSV, not shipping, industry.[/QUOTE]

Some OSVs are well compensated above SOME union wages and at only certain companies at certain tonnages in the GOM. And some of that depends on what license you hold, DP cert, etc. Your argument as a whole starts to get seriously diluted as one considers hourly wage break down when you consider OSVs 12 hour days and most ships 8 hour days plus OT (as necessary outside watches, weekend watches, and holidays). At some point when OSVs realize they can ultimately pay less by calling out someone when necessary for 2 certified DPOs on the bridge to keep the client happy or 3 ABs on deck during cargo, whatever, they can save a lot of money on wages. Masters and Chiefs wages shouldn’t change b/c they are expected to be available any time. Why an owner / operator such as a Chouest / Guidry / Candies / Hornbeck hasn’t instituted this before now (especially with 5 LDOs, 6 ABs, and multiple engineers and QMEDS on bigger boats and more rooms to make it possible) is unimaginable. They could possibly save a thousand $ a day per boat, and its not as if the mates are so busy they couldn’t find the time to handle tallying up a few OT sheets. It would only take one operator to start the dominoes… And their day rate would never change.

HOSMax 300/310 class have a cargo mate and cargo engineer position. The mates come down off the bridge to help at the rig and the dock. They usually have the stability loading sheet when they show up for the JSA. This way we can discuss how much and what tank before we even start. I think it’s a fantastic idea and when the guys are on their game it makes things go way smoother. Once the boat is tied up the mates show up without having to be asked to lend a hand hooking up hoses, tank sounding or whatever. As I’ve stated numerous times you can not ever be the master of a vessel without mastering every evolution onboard. Same goes for the mechanical side a good master has a basic understanding of how it all works. Button mashing boat drivers make for a decent mate but a horrible master. I’m gonna be working for one these kids one day in the future when he becomes a master. I’ll sleep better knowing he was taught properly on his way to the top. Same goes for the asst engineers. One day I’ll be the old man night guy for one of these kids. I hope they’ll remember I took the time to teach them a thing or two and take it easy on an old man who’s close to retiring.

[QUOTE=c.captain;145111]fine…I am lowering myself in arguing with you so you win, OSV mariners are the only truly proficient mariners out there, Look at the awesome job they did on the AIVIQ there Brownie!

I am out…I will not keep battling such a narrow minded bunch who refuses to see how they are playing right into Joe Boss’s hand. If any of you think for one minute that there a single OMSA member company cares about their workforce more than profits then they can step right up and prove me wrong but I think I will be waiting a good long time. Forever in fact,[/QUOTE]

Actually the entire scheme is just another indication that the USA is digressing to a banana republic controlled by the few for their own benefit. The political prostitution of the USCG should surprise no one.The license gift to OMSA is corruption that the rest of the world recognizes already. They can now build their mud boats as big as they want without having to compete with the drilling companies and unions for labor as they will have their own captive labor pool of “unlimited” masters and mates.In world opinion the USA mariner reputation wasn’t that great before anyway. It very doubtful these unlimited guys with only OSV experience would be hired outside the OSV industry due to their limited experience in a shipping environment. A few have made it to the drillships and box boats with only OSV experience but they sure didn’t start at the top and earned their way up just like everyone else. I don’t see this change as a big threat but it is embarrassing for the world to see another example of who actually runs the USCG, especially after they watched the USA dragged into STCW kicking and screaming.

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;145117]I have yet to see a single mate on any OSV I’ve worked abd, let alone the boats I’m tied up to, actively participate in product transfers (in port / at sea) as in line-up, connect, DOIs, commence, soundings, finish, blow down, disconnect. Same goes for inspecting lashings during and after cargo ops, in transit, etc. The Engineers do one and the ABs / OSs do the other. How does driving the boat up to a rig/platform/MODU (whether you are doing DP or not) and then staying on the bridge the entire time = offshore cargo handling? We drive boats, answer base radios, fill out paperwork, do a few PMs, deal with SOLAS/FF gear, and DP. Where is the hands on cargo work in any of that?

This is not a license argument. I’m just trying to understand some of these things you say OSV mates are doing that I have yet to see. I don’t think my employer is different than any other 1600GRT/3000 ITC boat operator/owner.

We have had this specific conversation about these OSV mate duties on this forum before, and even one of CC’s biggest opponents (Chief at HOS) admitted as much about OSV mates and cargo. Especially liquid / bulk.[/QUOTE]

You must not be looking at all the boats then…

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;145117]and even one of CC’s biggest opponents (Chief at HOS) admitted as much about OSV mates and cargo. Especially liquid / bulk.[/QUOTE]

Hey Fraqrat is not an opponent but rather a bud and former loyal member of the Operation Liquidate Uniblab team…in fact he was the only member who did his duty. Rebelrider went missing in action and has yet to be found, Sweatngrease retreated, his brother went back to Deer Lodge.

Now regarding our opinions about the GoM offshore we agree to disagree…I am right and he is a narrow minded pinhead!

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Humans fail at all levels but I believe AIVIQ’s example if better because if was people who were not experienced with a job they were doing in a place they had not been in before during a time of year which they had not previously encountered that led to the unbelievable debacle we all witnessed. I don’t even say deepsea experience was what was missing there in late 2012 but rather Alaskan winter towing experience.

So fill us in on the C. Captain compensation plan. Does it pay better than Joe Boss in the bayou? Is it an 8 hour workday? Certainly it has health benefits, 401k, and pension. What union are you going with?

My company has three employees…ME, MYSELF and I. And yes, I provide health benefits by buying my own insurance, and pay into an IRA so I contribute to a retirement fund. I doubt too many unions want to sign a contract with a company with 45’ and 30’ boats that don’t have crews other than the owner.

Now stop using my attempt at self employment against my tirade against Joe Boss in the GoM. He is a billionaire many times over and I am a working mariner with a couple of old boats trying to keep them working. You can let me have it when I am a billionaire as well.

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There is oil offshore, it’s going to eventually be sold for a shit load of money.

Question is how is the money going to get divvied up? It’s going to be decided by some combination of politics, negotiation with various parties and the market. So-called Joe Boss does not negotiate as an individual, he has organized into a company of some sort. Not only that but individual companies have an organization. Taxpayers are not expected to negotiate as individuals with “big oil” Our government is going to do it on our behalf. If, as citizens, we want a bigger voice we can organized in the form of NGOs.

What about workers? If workers organize, well, thats an violation of free market principles and will lead to the collapse of the economy. That leaves us starting threads hoping someone has heard a rumor because there are too many workers to give them a seat at the table.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;145119]HOSMax 300/310 class have a cargo mate and cargo engineer position. The mates come down off the bridge to help at the rig and the dock. They usually have the stability loading sheet when they show up for the JSA. This way we can discuss how much and what tank before we even start. I think it’s a fantastic idea and when the guys are on their game it makes things go way smoother. Once the boat is tied up the mates show up without having to be asked to lend a hand hooking up hoses, tank sounding or whatever. As I’ve stated numerous times you can not ever be the master of a vessel without mastering every evolution onboard. Same goes for the mechanical side a good master has a basic understanding of how it all works. Button mashing boat drivers make for a decent mate but a horrible master. I’m gonna be working for one these kids one day in the future when he becomes a master. I’ll sleep better knowing he was taught properly on his way to the top. Same goes for the asst engineers. One day I’ll be the old man night guy for one of these kids. I hope they’ll remember I took the time to teach them a thing or two and take it easy on an old man who’s close to retiring.[/QUOTE]

Yes. I remember that conversation, but just didn’t feel it was necessary to find it and paste it here. I was glad to hear about that when you told me / us, and I thanked you for the fresh news. But it’s still a drop in the well compared to the way things are. As I’ve said before on here, if the engineers (on whatever boat) are doing the job of engineer and a lot of the cargo work of the mates, then they should be getting paid more. That might shake things up a bit.