Agree ‘something’ has to be done. But simply crying chicken little without having the ‘alternative’ answers, solution and knowing what the prices are is… Ignorant.
It would appear that expecting in comparable wages with incomparable benefits when the major competitors (Vane, Hornbeck, and McAllister) already pay less, and require more payment for healthcare is not just unreasonable, but shows how out of touch these demands are. It would be.different if Crowley, Foss or other companies who tow were regular competitors here in New England. But they aren’t. If you don’t like the way the Northeast wage settles out why not go to Crowley westcoast and give it a try?
[QUOTE=“Averof;102415”]Sad to report but Crowley and west coast towing (real towing, not ATBs) is a nonexistent relationship.[/QUOTE]
That’s partly what I was referring to, however even the ATBs have occasionally shown up on the east coast.
It would be nice to have a Nationwide pay scale. But not likely! To me this sounds like the 99% bitching about ‘what they should have’ versus what they are willing to negotiate. ( Or more likely) what someone else will negotiate for them, while they slink away grabbing the crumbs others leave on the table. Any idea what the ‘per day, per man contribution’ is for these MEBA, SIU crewed vessels is?
Cappy, you’re the only one bitching. You’re complaining about guys looking to make things better for themselves. Get over yourself already! Do you have a stake in the 333 companies decertifying? Please refrain from sharing your egotistical delusions of grandeur, your incorrect facts about events that happened at other companies and you’re all around negative attitude. You never did mention if you went to the same “license mills” you talked so negatively about earlier, you didn’t answer if you were a captain when asked and not privy to a collective bargaining agreement? I’m just gonna come out and say it, You know Phuck-All about Phuck-All, I feel sorry for the crew that you hold hostage with your stories!
Again, you don’t put up actual info so others can make up their own mind. Just keep throwing enough shit against the wall and enough people will assume you know what you’re talking about. But…
Regarding license mills. Yes I have been to two. Once to test out for AB, but I didn’t attend sea school, I just tested out there. Years ago when the outlying recs were closed they allowed some schools to proctor the exam. As opposed to the certificates in lieu of exams now. And again for celestial. Other than that all else has Been done on My own. With exams at RECs. Etoi? Yes, I am a Captain. no I am not still a 333 member. Yes, I do know how shitty it was in the harbor wihout a Union. I gladly joined, and remained a member ( while I was being represented by 333). And I do know that My wage is DIRECTLY tied to any contract negotiation. My point although not in agreement with you is in direct support of a fair wage, good benefits, and the ability to collectively bargain for these good wages. And to have the knowledge that others (everyone) benefit. Not just the select few. Divide and conquer NEVER works. You can’t even get a straight answer from the RTBU gang. Now you want to do some obscure move with no documentation. Good job.
I’m not bitching. But, I certainly don’t see what all the hubbub is about. Better? Where? (In the coastwise towing industry?) How much? Working conditions being a HUGE part for me. Having heard so many guys quitting for Vane (and returning) and quitting for Hornbeck (and returning) And guys who are always trying to get away from Morty… where is the other company that you refer to on the East coast who has MEBA or AMO? Who else has training? I Screw YOU. Been there, done that, thanks. If you’re on an ATB (as I am) then are you bitching about not having parity with Crowley? Good luck. You think you have paperwork now! Go give it a whirl. The grass ain’t always greener.
To sum up what I keep hearing from the vocal few: “We want to get rid of 333!”
And replace it with what?
I bet you are fun to drive in a car with… I just KNOW there’s gas station some where around the corner. Why not find the gas station prior to letting go lines? The Union may not be perfect. BUt why not FIX the one you have, versus jumping onto the unknown. Come on, where are the facts? How much? What cost?
Instead of bitching for the sake of bitching, why not supply the answer, not just some vague thought?
You’re right about OSG. My source who retired from there sort of changed the story over a couple of beers. I forgot the Vandyke treachery. But, it still holds true, about the changeover from one Union to another with NO knowledge of the details. This push to rid 333 is the same. I bet the whole harbor would join you IF you supplied some answers, instead of just throwing out the ‘Let’s get rid of 333’ chant.
As an outsider looking in, I can only make a couple of uninformed observations: Local 333 did a hell of job for its members years ago, and got them the highest wages, but it was damn near impossible new guys to get a job in NYC. 333 and its members got too greedy with a strike. Employers broke the strike and broke 333. Then anyone could get a job in NYC and the companies brought in cheap replacements from the Gulf. 333 later became a tool for employers to hold wages down, not for members to negotiate them up.
With 333 wages currently far below the cost of living in NYC, and far below the wages in the Gulf, NYC wages need to rise substantially.
If NYC wages rise, it will have little to do with 333’s efforts (or any union’s), and more to do with higher wages and higher demand in the Gulf, that causes NYC companies to lose their best people to higher wages in the Gulf.
When anti-union Gulf Coast employers are doing more to raise wages in NYC than Local 333 is. it doesn’t look like Local 333 is worth much.
NYC wages will rise when its best mariners start voting with their feet marching south for better opportunities.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;102429]As an outsider looking in, I can only make a couple of uninformed observations: Local 333 did a hell of job for its members years ago, and got them the highest wages, but it was damn near impossible new guys to get a job in NYC. 333 and its members got too greedy with a strike. Employers broke the strike and broke 333. Then anyone could get a job in NYC and the companies brought in cheap replacements from the Gulf. 333 later became a tool for employers to hold wages down, not for members to negotiate them up.[/QUOTE]
I would really like to know where you were in 1988, I was at the meeting where the COMPANIES gave us a contract that cut wages by close to (and for some over) 50%. Plus they got rid of the cooks. Those companies had no intention to deal with 333 and wanted a strike. That is why they already had crews in hotels in the area. I know of crews that were taken off of the boats by Armed Guards! We could have wanted to keep working under the old contract until a new one could have been worked out but those companies (Turecamo, Moran, McAllister, Bouchard and Moraina) wanted to be done with the union.
Sorry but this is a very sore subject to me as I lived through it.
[QUOTE=“tugsailor;102429”]As an outsider looking in, I can only make a couple of uninformed observations: Local 333 did a hell of job for its members years ago, and got them the highest wages, but it was damn near impossible new guys to get a job in NYC. 333 and its members got too greedy with a strike. Employers broke the strike and broke 333. Then anyone could get a job in NYC and the companies brought in cheap replacements from the Gulf. 333 later became a tool for employers to hold wages down, not for members to negotiate them up.
With 333 wages currently far below the cost of living in NYC, and far below the wages in the Gulf, NYC wages need to rise substantially.
If NYC wages rise, it will have little to do with 333’s efforts (or any union’s), and more to do with higher wages and higher demand in the Gulf, that causes NYC companies to lose their best people to higher wages in the Gulf.
When anti-union Gulf Coast employers are doing more to raise wages in NYC than Local 333 is. it doesn’t look like Local 333 is worth much.
NYC wages will rise when its best mariners start voting with their feet marching south for better opportunities.
I would really like to know where you were in 1988, I was at the meeting where the COMPANIES gave us a contract that cut wages by close to (and for some over) 50%. Plus they got rid of the cooks. Those companies had no intention to deal with 333 and wanted a strike. That is why they already had crews in hotels in the area. I know of crews that were taken off of the boats by Armed Guards! We could have wanted to keep working under the old contract until a new one could have been worked out but those companies (Turecamo, Moran, McAllister, Bouchard and Moraina) wanted to be done with the union.
Sorry but this is a very sore subject to me as I lived through it.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately for us mariners/fortunate for the companies, the Gulf isn’t too interested in the 60±ish year old sleep apnea crowd common in New York. Yes, plenty of healthy guys out there older and younger, but there are an awful lot of wheelhouse guys the Gulf seems to have zero interest in, whether it be age, health, background, history, attitude etc. Until they are gone to retirement there will not be a major shortage of top notch wheelhouse guys in 333 territory…and at that an awful lot of them are some of the best boat-handlers to work anywhere. How long until all the 1600-ton deckhands move on?
Basically all I’m saying, so nobody takes offense to the age mention, is that the Gulf isn’t interested in everyone in New York. They only risk losing so many guys to it when you consider who actually CAN go vs who “could.”
[QUOTE=Tugs;102459]I would really like to know where you were in 1988, I was at the meeting where the COMPANIES gave us a contract that cut wages by close to (and for some over) 50%. Plus they got rid of the cooks. Those companies had no intention to deal with 333 and wanted a strike. That is why they already had crews in hotels in the area.
Sorry but this is a very sore subject to me as I lived through it.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much the same chain of events during the SIU harbor tug strike of October '87 in Philadelphia, Baltimore & Philadelphia. We worked under several extensions here in Baltimore before Curtis Bay pulled the plug.
We were to go from a five man crew (capt/docking pilot, mate, 2 sailors, 1 engineer) to 4, the docking pilots no longer on the boats and only 1 deckhand on a now 24 hour a day boat. Daily rates were to be established and no overtime. Period. At first, we got 3 holidays and I think it is now back up to 7, no premiums for nights, weekends, handling scow lines, etc.
It was quite the upheaval. The companies had no intention of good faith negotiations as scab crews (including docking pilots) were already lodged in nearby hotels. Two van loads of security personnel (including dogs) and scabs came busting through our line out in front of the Recreation Pier less than 3 hours after negotiations had ended at the union hall on Baltimore Street.
It was an ugly scene and the traditional harbor tug-boating we had come to know was over in a flash.
[QUOTE=capnfab;102547] scabs .[/QUOTE]
THERE’S a word that should be required reading for all these Immoral fucks who have no scruples and allowed themselves to be used as fodder for corporate greed. Luckily they are just about all gone, dead or got: ‘you’re 20’ off, bring ‘er in’ right off the boats.
[QUOTE=capnfab;102547]Pretty much the same chain of events during the SIU harbor tug strike of October '87 in Philadelphia, Baltimore & Philadelphia. We worked under several extensions here in Baltimore before Curtis Bay pulled the plug.
We were to go from a five man crew (capt/docking pilot, mate, 2 sailors, 1 engineer) to 4, the docking pilots no longer on the boats and only 1 deckhand on a now 24 hour a day boat. Daily rates were to be established and no overtime. Period. At first, we got 3 holidays and I think it is now back up to 7, no premiums for nights, weekends, handling scow lines, etc.
It was quite the upheaval. The companies had no intention of good faith negotiations as scab crews (including docking pilots) were already lodged in nearby hotels. Two van loads of security personnel (including dogs) and scabs came busting through our line out in front of the Recreation Pier less than 3 hours after negotiations had ended at the union hall on Baltimore Street.
It was an ugly scene and the traditional harbor tug-boating we had come to know was over in a flash.[/QUOTE]
The same Lawyer that handled the Contract (Strike) for Interstate handled the Strike for the N.Y. Companies.
One of the delegates at 333 was a scab deckhand for Moran during the strike. How does one help break a union and then become a delegate and have a seat on the UMD???
[QUOTE=ForkandBlade;102614]One of the delegates at 333 was a scab deckhand for Moran during the strike. How does one help break a union and then become a delegate and have a seat on the UMD???[/QUOTE]
.I would say if my choice was sail scab or have my family on the street I’d sail scab. If my choice was sail scab or sail union I’d sail union. We don’t always get to choose our situation.
I don’t know what the situations is, I do wish you guys the best, but be careful.
EDIT: I’ve never had to make the choice, I’d go ashore if I could before I’d displace someone but without knowing the situation I’d hesitate to judge someones else choices.
It’s not the question of crossing the picket line and working as a scab, It’s that somebody that did break a union and is now a delegate with the same union. Goes to show how weak Local 333 has become.
[QUOTE=ForkandBlade;102624]It’s not the question of crossing the picket line and working as a scab, It’s that somebody that did break a union and is now a delegate with the same union. Goes to show how weak Local 333 has become.[/QUOTE]
I see your point. I was sailing west coast when all this came down so don’t know much about it.
In the 80’s, there was an incredible glut of mariners. The Gulf oil patch went bust in the early 80’s. It was also a lot easier to get a license back then, especially in certain places, like New Orleans. (I seem to recall that a couple New Orleans REC licensing guys went to jail for basically selling licenses, and the Gulf was awash in “paper seatime” and “grandfather licenses.”). The safety culture (or lack of it) was very different in the 80’s too.
Today, there is still no shortage of mariners, but there is nothing like the glut of mariners that we had in the 80’s. Maritime employment is now growing in the oil patch and supply and demand appears to be approaching a balance. Guys from the Gulf are not going to leave higher paying non-union jobs (where they fit in) to go to NYC (where they don’t fit in) to break strikes for a lot less money. Licenses are harder to get now. Not just anyone with a license can be instantly put aboard a tug as a licensed captain now.
The 80’s were the Reagan Era, and he quickly established the government’s position on unions by firing all the striking air traffic controllers and filling the jobs with permanent replacements. Today, the Obama administration is very union friendly. Remember how Obama’s NLRB told Boeing it could not move union work from Seattle, to right to work non-union South Carolina.
Its time for a TOAR or MOT to start having some real cash value in the employment marketplace, as much value as DP. Tug and barge handling takes many times more skill than DP, especially in NYC.
Not everyone can instantly get all these expensive STCW courses either.
There weren’t so many ATBs in the 80’s, and there was not the focus on potential oil spills and OPA 90 liability that we have today.
Things are very different today, but that does not mean that the maritime unions (with the notable exception of MEBA) are good for much. Nor does it mean that strikes are a good idea either.
Hopefully, a rising tide will soon lift all boats.