[QUOTE=“injunear;102248”]
Good luck with that!
I can dream… can’t I?
Its one year
If 333 just goes independent from the UMD…I don’t believe there is any waiting period. Is that correct?
Are there any Moran guys out there on gCaptain? The op is from Moran…yes??
Good luck guys!
I would advise you strongly to not deal with the teamsters in a maritime setting. If you are a truck driver, they will represent you well and fight tooth and nail. As a maritime union…trust me, or risk learning the hard way.
Do the Teamsters lobby to protect the Jones Act? Do they have a maritime school already in place? Do they have a retirement/benefits plan catered to merchant marines? If not, then why would Teamsters even be an option. It’s jumping from one mafia infused bed (ILA) into another (Teamsters). MEBA.MMP or AMO is the right move for the harbor. So what if we go a year without a union contract, you don’t think there’s gonna be a 0%, 3%, 3% contract offered anyhow? Do we really want to retain Mike Riordan, Paul Riora, or Ron Tucker? Frickin’ pathetic! I signed my petition today to decertify and sent it back to the Spike Marlin dude’s email. Hopefully something will come of it. I really don’t give two shits what the office says either!
HA! Preach on!
From my experience, and it is different than yours, the wage/ working conditions are FAR better in NY harbor because of (not in spite of) 333. Anyone who argues otherwise was NOT here prior to companies REsigning with 333 in 1995/'96. For those of you who DON’T know (or have selective memory) the wages were (top down):
Capt 275.
Mate or Engineer 210.
Tankerman 200.
AB 125.
OS 100.
I know when my company resigned my Mates wage jumped from 210 to 246 a day. Now mates make approximately 550 a day. So, if you must decertify, at least look at how the wages HAVE benefited by organized negotiations. I think you guys are having pipedreams thinking you will ‘get more benefits’ from another Union. They don’t just ‘give’ benefits away. They are paid by Company contribution ( which in turn comes out of your daily rate) and by your increased dues. 333 is around 500 a year dues. That’s scratch to make your check. But, if you think RTBU has it any better… Ask them. Sounds like same old same old to me.
This issue comes up with my guys about “the union doesn’t do anything! No retirement, no benefits! Wah wah wah!”
Well you got rid of the old one ten years ago that had been around forever and provided a pension etc, that people had been paying into forever; where is the money for pensions in the new union going to come from if its new? Why the hell would they provide all these benefits to the <50 guys here? Yeah…that’s what I thought.
About how many guys on tugs in NY with/formerly with 333?
I remember how the layoffs and bumps went in 2009…t’was ugly, and the “union” really stepped right up to make it right!!! Eyes roll! Nothing like captains bumping union mates off boats.
There was a good underground forum back then that magically disappeared, lot of guys got in hot water over it. Mostly anti-Ksea/333/gulf “prison” tugs where the troublemakers went. Wonder if there is anything else like it popping up.
Let’s brush the dust off the old statistics books. Comparing wages from 1995/1996 to current, for NY tugboat companies, what percentage of a pay increase have they received? Now do the same for OSV companies in the Gulf. Who has the higher percentage of pay raises? Who is subject to a collective bargaining agreement? Why are the gulf companies pay raise percentages higher? I’ll tell you; Skilled labor establishes wages, not unions. Without the demand, the unions would have no leverage. Do you really think that the company negotiating teams filled with bean counters with MBA, and CPA degrees really fear the likes of a former scab deckhand (Big Mike), Paulie Riora (dresses like a Richmond Terrace whino) or Mr. Ron Tucker aka (125 miles per diem for Staten Island to Bayonne)?
As far as you thinking we expect to receive benefits from the other unions for free, think again. We're paying $500/year in dues, $400/month for a family medical plan, and we're eating all of any school (tuition, travel, hotel and meals) unless a company agrees to pay. What does that come out to a year? Would the increase in dues (at best double) be more or less than what we're paying now? You're saying that our day rates will be lowered because of these benefits? Ask Crowley's SIU guys what their salaries are? For engineers, their even par, with 401k, medical, schooling and yes retirement!
Hats off to the RTBU guys for kicking out the Bay Street bums, but going it alone and not affiliating with a major maritime union would worry me. Considering they now work for a company that starts deckhands on the river at $109/day. They're gonna need a lot of smart people negotiating for them.I remember texting a friend that the 333’s days were numbered when Kirby and Ksea hit the news. Guess I was part right. Nothing against the NY Kirby guys but I see it as a major uphill fight that will result in repressing gains throughout the harbor. Nobody’s fault, no unions fault, just the corporation and the mentality they are now up against. Hope that’s not the case of course!
why are Gulf wages comparatively higher?
. Because proportionally they were SHITTY prior to the flight to NY which drained so many experienced sailors FROM the ‘patch’. The GOM wages came UP to northern wages because of the demand. I used to work in the GOM in the early 80s. There is little mystery as to where the BIG wages were then. (Until '88). All I can remember was how cyclical the entire GOM is. Regarding 333: prior to being under collective bargaining, there was NO such thing as OT, Holiday Pay, or seniority for promotion. I agree 333 has ‘faults’. But, beware what you wish for, when you kick one out for another. Think back when OSG decertified SIU And went with OSG. Everyone thought the same… AMO is SO much better. Then everyone with more than 15 years was unceremoniously dumped so they couldn’t get their pension. ( one particular guy at KC was let go at 19.5 years!)
Cappy you’re so wrong about the AMO situation at MARITRANS not OSG. I was there when it went down and got laid off with the first selling of the small Northeast fleet. During the late 90’s All Captains, Chief Engineers, and Barge Captains received management benefits (pension, medical, etc) they weren’t part of the SIU or any other union. We got a call one day and were told that we belonged to the AMO, were gonna have to pay a $2k initiation fee and $100/month in dues. After some sqwauking, AMO dropped the initiation fee and wham bam, we’re all now AMO members. Eyeballing their 20 year retirement and medical for life, we were pretty impressed. Here’s where the Wharton Business School Grad Stephen Van Dyke pulls a fast one:
Exactly eleven months after we magically became AMO members, in Dec. 1999. Maritrans sells it’s small Northeast fleet to Vane Brothers and K-Sea, laying off a ton of employees. Had the company waited one more month, all of our pension funds in the management accounts would have been transferred over to the AMO and the laid off employees would have been covered. Maritrans/Stephen Van Dyke, move out to Tampa with everyone’s pensions leaving the AMO and the employees high and dry. The AMO employees that remained at Maritrans after that and were vested, received a nice pension and their benefits, but the company NOT THE AMO, screwed us! Feel free to ask any Maritrans guy the same question.
So, what your’re saying is: Non Union guys were screwed by a sweetheart deal by management? And the whole shebang was sold down the river by VanDyke. So, how does this affect whether the NY harbor should decertify 333? I think it is exactly what some want to do. The RTBU is going to have exactly the same outcome. Until I see proof, I will stick to the existing system. The issue I see is: Get out of a Union (for something ‘better’) But, not quite knowing what the ‘better’ is. There is not even evidence of how much the desired benefits will cost. Come on, I keep hearing about training. Realistically, how much are you talking about? 3,000 once every 5 years? (maybe) Like your company won’t reimburse you now? (if you are a desired employee) Mine will. (But they are selective on who they give the money too) Just what I want my company to do, blow cash on idiots who shouldn’t have a dime wasted on them. Great, now you want ‘free’ training for all, even the useless ones. I have sailed with FAR too many useless Piney Point bums to not see the problem. Stuff that is being pined for is penny ante.
If you have sailed with FAR too many idiots from Piney Point and you’re the captain, train them! Did you forget you were a deckhand once who couldn’t steer dicks in a whorehouse? Apparently we can’t all be perfect M’Fers like you right? Belonging to a union like MEBA where engineers could pick up a refrigeration, electrical or welding class, or where AB’s who are mortgage poor, carrying a family/dependents are able to get the courses to upgrade isn’t “penny ante!” Wish I was as rich as you claim to be. For the record, the companies aren’t paying when you go to a union school. I take it that you are running in a captain position and won’t benefit from decertifying or moving 333 to another affiliation?
I really don’t see a lack of northeast companies that pay for training. If you work hard and don’t make life difficult for management I have seen plenty of guys get the company to help or totally pay for them to take a few courses. A small union like 333 currently could not and never will be able to have “their own school” like the big maritime unions do.
[QUOTE=ForkandBlade;102311]Cappy you’re so wrong about the AMO situation at MARITRANS not OSG. I was there when it went down and got laid off with the first selling of the small Northeast fleet. During the late 90’s All Captains, Chief Engineers, and Barge Captains received management benefits (pension, medical, etc) they weren’t part of the SIU or any other union. We got a call one day and were told that we belonged to the AMO, were gonna have to pay a $2k initiation fee and $100/month in dues. After some sqwauking, AMO dropped the initiation fee and wham bam, we’re all now AMO members. Eyeballing their 20 year retirement and medical for life, we were pretty impressed. Here’s where the Wharton Business School Grad Stephen Van Dyke pulls a fast one:
Exactly eleven months after we magically became AMO members, in Dec. 1999. Maritrans sells it’s small Northeast fleet to Vane Brothers and K-Sea, laying off a ton of employees. Had the company waited one more month, all of our pension funds in the management accounts would have been transferred over to the AMO and the laid off employees would have been covered. Maritrans/Stephen Van Dyke, move out to Tampa with everyone’s pensions leaving the AMO and the employees high and dry. The AMO employees that remained at Maritrans after that and were vested, received a nice pension and their benefits, but the company NOT THE AMO, screwed us! Feel free to ask any Maritrans guy the same question.[/QUOTE]
Everything stated above is true! I was one of the lucky ones that ended up fully vested. There were a lot of very upset people over the way this happened.
[QUOTE=ForkandBlade;102314]If you have sailed with FAR too many idiots from Piney Point and you’re the captain, train them! Did you forget you were a deckhand once who couldn’t steer dicks in a whorehouse? Apparently we can’t all be perfect M’Fers like you right? Belonging to a union like MEBA where engineers could pick up a refrigeration, electrical or welding class, or where AB’s who are mortgage poor, carrying a family/dependents are able to get the courses to upgrade isn’t “penny ante!” Wish I was as rich as you claim to be. For the record, the companies aren’t paying when you go to a union school. I take it that you are running in a captain position and won’t benefit from decertifying or moving 333 to another affiliation?[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between everyone getting ‘free’ training, and those who earn, deserve and show prospect getting training. I have learned to NOT waste my time training the ‘underachievers’ who prattle about how ‘good’ they are an how much they deserve. Show me you have a modicum of intellect, desire, and determination and I will show you everything I know. (Or as much as I remember) BUT, assume that I need to teach you and the door is slammed shut in your face. THIS is my feeling about attrition, matriculation and promotion. It has NOTHING to do with Union, or what someone ‘deserves’. The assumption that everyone is equal is BS. Most everyone can be trained. But, in a industry like ours I certainly won’t sleep well with someone who has ‘just’ gotten through a license mill (Whether Union, Academy or Sea School) You seem confused. I am no better than some, better than others. I don’t have any illusions of my superiority. BUT, I do know BS when I hear it. My Bullshitometer is pretty finely tuned to separate the whine from the cheese.
What do you mean: "The companies don’t pay…? Of course they do. I am not too sure you were actually paying attention when you worked at OSG. They pay a daily amount for each day worked for each employee into a Union fund. The more benefits you receive the more the company must pay. I am trying to remember what the amount is called… Maybe another Union guy on here can jar my memory. I certainly hope that no one is SO misguided that they feel the Dues are the only amount that is figured into these other mentioned Unions for benefits: education, health, retirement and vacation. Where do you think the Union (whichever one) will come up with the money from? Thin air! It is directly taken from the daily compensation. Now to the sticky part. You KNOW that some guys will bitch about having to ‘lose’ a couple dollars a day in wages, since the company has to pay for these ‘new’ benefits. I can just hear the division between the greedy bastards who 'don’t need a Union, and want every last dime. Until they have no representation and get the shaft.
And once again, Ask the Crowley SIU guys what their pay scale is and what benefits they receive. I can certainly vouch that engineers are dollar for dollar with the NY companies and much better benefits. Even the IBU on the West Coast is almost identical,though their pay scale is confusing as hell to me. As far as everyone getting a free ride, it doesn’t matter how much “free” schooling anyone gets, it’s ultimately up to the company to advance a person and thats where merit and evaluations come to play. Hell why limit schooling for the “unworthy” lets limit who gets medical, 401k and other benefits to right? Achtung! I’m gonna question you on these “license mills” also, where did you get your classes for your license(s)? Wasn’t at these same license mills was it?
As for what the company contributes to the union per mariner, it's basically transferring the money that they pay to manage/run your benefits now into the union funds and allow them to run it. For example, my family medical costs me around $400/month, the company contributes close to another $1000/month, instead of paying into that medical/benefit fund, they would be paying it into the union's fund.
You're turning this whole debate into an argument about deadbeats, who will be carried by the effort of the productive, when the whole thread is suppose to be about getting rid of an impotent union and moving forward.Something has to be done, we can all agree to that. As far my point about the division thing, i am not an advocate for anyone who is a deadbeat or wont help themselves, and god knows theres alot of them out here. Alot of guys here get company paid training with no union involvement. One or two years without a contract isnt what gets me, its what comes with it, are we tradeing in one screwed up mess for another one with a different name? From what i know, there is over 30% at Reinauer right now, who have signed the petition, going to be interesting come July 1st.