[QUOTE=tengineer;56778]The ship is not pulled off the pier by a tug or led out to sea by a pilot because her master is incapable [though some may be] it’s the scheme of things which is supported by the various insurers, local authorities etc. For an example, I will hazard a guess that eventually anchorman will be a master one day, he’will have to pull his ship into a shipyard at some point and when he does he will be required to use a pilot and possibly even a docking pilot depending on where in the world he is. There will also be tugs involved. When he leaves he will be required to use tugs and a pilot once again. Does this mean Anchorman is incompetent? Absolutely not, it’s just the way things work.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I didn’t do a very good job with my post
My point was that if you’re sailing master several skills are required. One of those skills is shiphandling. Another closely related skill is the ability to work with a pilot during mooring and unmooring operations. If you have the second skill it doesn’t mean you don’t have the first.
As far as a unlimited master being able to moor with tugs. Yes I think most could, not as smooth or as efficiently as a pilot perhaps but most could get in done under good conditions. In moderately difficult conditions it might be a little ugly. In difficult conditions mooring without a pilot might be ugly and risky.
[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;56780] Do you actually think most unlimited masters could dock their ship themselves, even with tugs?[/QUOTE]
Now that is a silly question, and just argumentative. I sailed coastal tugs before going deep sea and have watched the captains of 125,000 ton tankers put the ship alongside a direlect lifeboat at sea like they were putting a barge on the hip. It is just plain ignorant to think that by the time a man (or woman) gets a master’s berth on a ship they are not fit to drive it.
Attempting to degrade those who hold the job you long for isn’t going to make you qualified to hold it. You have to earn it the same way those folks did.
[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;56780]But it does mean that people who only work in that environment never really learn ship handling. Do you actually think most unlimited masters could dock their ship themselves, even with tugs?[/QUOTE]
Yes they could, and that Master knows ship handling very well usually.
[QUOTE=anchorman;56802]Yes they could, and that Master knows ship handling very well usually.[/QUOTE]
I would challenge any limited tonnage master to jump on a large vessel (simulator) and manage to even hold a steady course and complete an approach including docking with tugs while manning the wheel, let alone using a helmsman and giving verbal commands. As I progressed through all the OICNW courses I seen several “boathandlers” that couldn’t complete the most basic maneuvers without trouble. It is a most humbling experience, everyone should try it. You get spoiled sitting in your chair with z drives or twin screw and horsepower to spare. When you shift your rudder or pull her back you get an immediate response. Not like that on the big en’s you gotta believe, no, you gotta know what your doing is right because by the time you figure out it’s wrong it’s too late.
Well, I want to add my two cents here and say pilots bring a lot to the table.
Local knowledge - I don’t want to take a big car ship into some dog hole of a port I’ve never seen before on a windy night on my own, some ports are far too risky to attempt with a big ship without local knowledge.
Experience working with local tugs - Pilots work closely with the same tug captains all the time. Port around the world use completely different systems while mooring/unmooring ships. The skill level on ship assist tugs varies, the type varies. A local pilot is going to have a much better handle on this then a ship captain visiting the port for the first time
Shiphandling skills - It would be hard to match the level of proficiency pilots achieve in places like Singapore, Hong Kong, Bremerhaven or Rotterdam where they handle one ship after another all day, day after day. You might think they would have a hard time jumping from one ship to the other but those guys just get her done.
Having said that I have seen pilots in ports that mostly see only tankers have a hard time working on a ship with the house forward.
Every assist tug company that I know of uses their own docking pilots in most east cost ports. Maryland state pilots dock the ships but that is the only east coast port I know of like that.
[QUOTE=anchorman;56853]Don’t you bypass 3rd in the engine room when going unlimited from limited oceans chief?[/QUOTE]
I am not sure. In my personal case, I was working coastal freighters and deep sea while holding a limited chief and a 2nd unlimited. An assistant can only be an assistant so to sail chief on anything you need a piece of paper that says chief or in some cases a DDE. Until I got an unlimited chief my ticket had limited chief tacked on to it.
[QUOTE=KPEngineer;56857]Chief Ltd Oceans can go right to 2nd. Chief Ltd Near Coastal goes to 3rd.[/QUOTE]
I thought is was something like that; when I was upgrading through the ranks I remember the E/R guys going straight to 2nd Assistant. Not that is matters. My experience is the piece of paper is just that. I knew of several Unlimited Chiefs working as 3rd or 2nd Assistants just being newer with a certain company, which is the ultimate check and balance - and the impression with those you work with.
[QUOTE=anchorman;56861]My experience is the piece of paper is just that.[/QUOTE]
This seems like the most important point out of this whole thing. Who cares if they make the unlimited licenses easier to get, the pressure will be on the companies, port captains, captains to make sure their new hires have the skill to do the job, and not just the license. I’ve got a 1600 ton master but that doesn’t mean you should be turning me loose as Captain of your boat. Anyone who takes a look at my resume, or talks to me for a half hour will know that.
As for MMP looking out for everyone, give me a break. MMP is solid as far as unions go, but they don’t do anything that doesn’t benefit them or theirs. Not that this is a problem, thats what the union is for.
[QUOTE=50thState;56871]This seems like the most important point out of this whole thing. Who cares if they make the unlimited licenses easier to get, the pressure will be on the companies, port captains, captains to make sure their new hires have the skill to do the job, and not just the license. I’ve got a 1600 ton master but that doesn’t mean you should be turning me loose as Captain of your boat. Anyone who takes a look at my resume, or talks to me for a half hour will know that. [/QUOTE]
I see your point and I agree to a certain extent. From the point of view of the mariner the fact that an individual holds license doesn’t mean are qualified.
Lots of professions require a license. It is the means the government uses to protects the public’s interest. Of course special interests are going to try to manipulate the system to their own advantage.
I don’t agree that “anyone” can take a look at a resume and determine someone’s qualifications. My experience has been that if you attended the same school as the interviewer you’re good to go, if not it’s out the door. The other thing is that the union hiring hall no one looks at the resume or talks to you at all. If you meet the minimum requirements you can throw in same as anyone, at least for the junior officer positions.
I think a sturdy licensing process is essential. Lowering the minimum requirements in principle, if that is in fact what is happening, is going to lead to a lowering of qualifications in practice.
This whole topic is reminiscent of the Hawsepiper vs Academy Grad argument. The bottom line is, it depends on the individual and their particular experience. To consider a 3rd Mate as qualified to hold the license of a 1600 Ton Master by virtue of an examination is negligent. As would allowing a 1600 Ton Master to attain any unlimited license in which he doesn’t have direct experience with (in other words, start out at 3rd Mate). While there are certainly 1600 Ton vessels that approximate the considerations of a larger vessel, this discussion has primarily involved Tugs. While I have no experience with an OSV, it seems to me that cargo loading with consideration of stability is a more important aspect than for a tug. So there are some aspects that are similar and may not be difficult to adapt to a new environment.
I had been working in the NE on Tugs for about 6 months when I screwed myself out of my job. I was applying everywhere indicating my experience on Tugs. One inland company personnel manager told me, “I know you’ve been working on Tugs in the NE, but the work is so different that all I can give you credit for is that you’ve been on a boat”.
It is better to know one’s limitations, than one’s abilities…
[QUOTE=50thState;56871]As for MMP looking out for everyone, give me a break. MMP is solid as far as unions go, but they don’t do anything that doesn’t benefit them or theirs. Not that this is a problem, thats what the union is for.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=tengineer;56778]The ship is not pulled off the pier by a tug or led out to sea by a pilot because her master is incapable [though some may be] it’s the scheme of things which is supported by the various insurers, local authorities etc. For an example, I will hazard a guess that eventually anchorman will be a master one day, he’will have to pull his ship into a shipyard at some point and when he does he will be required to use a pilot and possibly even a docking pilot depending on where in the world he is. There will also be tugs involved. When he leaves he will be required to use tugs and a pilot once again. Does this mean Anchorman is incompetent? Absolutely not, it’s just the way things work.[/QUOTE]
You think Anchorman hasn’t done this already? Even if it were his first time, I assure you he could pull it off no problem. Not that he needs me to defend him. I have never sailed Deep-Sea, but I am 100% confident I could pull off a 3rd or 2nd spot no sweat, after the normal acclimatization period you would undergo on any vessel you are new to (stuff like OMG, where do they keep the creamer the Captain likes, kind of stuff). It is ALL DEPENDENT ON THE INDIVIDUAL. There is no doubt that the cultures are different, but once again dealing with them is dependent upon the individual. The top people can move back and and forth with aplomb and make it look easy. This is a B.S argument because the rules are simply going back to what they were pre-2002, pre-STCW. Actually, that’s not quite accurate because at least now you must complete at least a few classes and undergo assessments, not just sail and test. I don’t see anyone crying for those who received their licenses prior to 2002 to turn them in or say they are unqualified to hold them. It sounds like a bunch of I’ve got mine so screw you whining. Screw MMP, the CG is correcting the greater wrong here, by allowing practical experience to trump or at least equate to coursework.
