2016 BLS annual national mean wage figures for different seagoing positions:
Captains , mates and pilots: $81,520
Ship engineers: $74,120
Sailors and marine oilers: $46,120
All positions, average: $67,253, equivalent to $80,418 today.
1970 BLS report: “waterborne transportation” workers made a median of $6962/year, equivalent to $51,855 now. No definition of "waterborne transportation " worker was given. To compare, in 1970 a retail worker made a median of $4,012/year, or $29,883 today.
Just for fun: from a book I found called “Workers of the Nation” printed in 1900, detailed annual wage figures for sailors. (2022 equivalent in parentheses):
Average pay for a crew member $360/year ($10,670)
1st engineers $1250/year ($37,050)
2nd engineers $750 ($22,230)
1st mate $750 ($22,230)
2nd mate $500 ($14,820)
AB $250 ($7,410)
They worked 4 hours on/4 hours off, with dog watches.
A different economy in 1900. Land was cheap. Building supplies plentiful. Technology was simple. Modern medicine did not exist. U.S. life expectancy was 47.3 years–why save for the future?
I don’t know where those numbers came from. Certainly not deep sea. And if they’re mixed, that doesn’t make any sense. Can’t combine a Houston Pilot and an inland tow pilot.
If one is trying to determine the average salary of a Houston pilot you are right. But if one is trying to determine the average wage of all mariners, then the BLS data is more useful.
For every Houston pilot there are maybe a 100 tug skippers. The Houston pilot is the outlier. Tug skippers, and OSV mates, etc., are far more representative of the industry, so the average is more representative of their pay.
The figures come from annual surveys sent by the BLS to boat operators, who fill in the data. The BLS has no expertise to tell the difference between a bar pilot and a river tug pilot, or a captain and a 1st captain. And how do you compare the pay of a bar pilot in Aberdeen WA with a San Francisco bar pilot?
(The BLS does categorize between deep sea and inland mariners. I can give the figures tomorrow, but I did glance at them today and they aren’t tremendously different).
So they are all lumped together. But it has always been done that way. Note that in 1970 the BLS lumped everyone into "waterborne worker”, and not even the three categories they do now. So comparing the 2016 figure for all positions with the 1970 figure for “waterborne transportation workers”, adjusted for inflation, theoretically makes sense.
The thread has to do with general mariner pay compared to other U.S. workers, in the past and today. The data here suggests that the average U.S. sailor did not make more proportionally to other workers in 1970 than the mariners does today.
But this data is spotty. Not conclusive. It would be more useful if data from 1970 and 1980 were spilt into the same three categories as today. It may be that officers received proportionally more money than they do now, and that unlicensed sailors received proportionally less. No way of telling from BLS data.
But should be easy to determine what sailors made in 1970 or 1980. Somewhere there is a stash of union newspapers from 1970 and they likely published wages.
I don’t know. I don’t know any mates (again, deep sea), who are making 80k a year. Third mates where I worked are making at least 115, and it only goes up from there. Captains over 225. So to combine those with inland or crewboat Captain 1, 2, & 3 doesn’t give a good representation of what wages actually are.
The question of this thread, to me, seems to be, Do mariners as a group make more money, compared to other workers, today compared to 1980 or 1970? Not, Do ship captain or bar pilots make more? A bar pilot has always made more than the average worker, so why ask the question? The question is, Does the average maritime worker make more than the average land worker.
Average means average. Meaning you lump everyone together. Tomorrow I can give you the average for deepsea mariners as a group. But for every deep sea captain there will always be X times more ABs, OS, and wipers, so the average will skew far lower than a captain’s pay.
Except that category is titled Captains, Mates, and Pilots. So unlicensed shouldn’t be a part of it. They’re part of the Sailors category, who make significantly less, which makes sense.
We used to get the surveys where I work. The BLS has a given company fill the surveys out several years in a row, then they move on to other operators.
to assist in also clarifying ; Comparisons of wages , Maritime worker of a skill level comparable to a land worker of comparable skill. Example ; entry level ratings compared to say a construction laborer or fast food worker. Qmed refrigeration - land based A/C tech with comparable experience. For maritime officers - 3 A/E / 3rd mate pay of 1970 - 2022, compared to a land occupation requiring the same level of education / experience/ skill. When adjusted for inflation and other economic indicators like CPi, compare the BUY POWER. As well as the complete compensation package. Such as medical, dental, retirement(s) , job security,…I have seen the price of a brand new vehicle practically double between 2017 - 2022. The price(s) of normal everyday items like groceries and gas. In 2021 the price of gas was at least $1.00/gal less than in 2022. Simple items like toilet paper, bread, baking goods like yeast etc. Have people worried if those items will even be on the shelf when they go to the store, net alone the price tag there will be on those items. Did people in 1985 have to worry if there would even be toilet paper on the shelf ? Did people in 1985 have to worry about drastic price increases from one year to the next ?
Why did more people seek a maritime career between 1970-1998, than they do in 2022 ? In seems as though the monetary motivation has slipped away.
So the question leads more to asking ; Could anyone provide some stats to back up the claim that the monetary motivation to choose a sea going career has slipped away ?
All this instability in prices of goods, Also begs a question - How do unions or anyone negotiate a pay package ? What does a 3% pay increase mean if CPi goes up 20% ?
That’s a lot of data you’re asking for. How do you research medical, dental, and intangibles like personal motivations and job security, in subject and comparison occupations, back 50 years ago? It would take an expert months, or more, to analyze in depth.
Between 1973 and 1982 it wasn’t toilet paper. It was gasoline that was scarce. In a ten year period inflation reach 112%, in large part because of fuel scarcity.
Did people in 1979 worry about whether the gas station would have gas, and whether they are allowed to buy on odd or even days of the month? Did people in 1979 worry if they could afford to buy a house with a 12% interest rate on their mortgage? {Yes, they did…}
I get those responses. Absolutely there is a lot of data. However it can be broken down more simply. Would those that sail in 2022, and have ten or more years to continue sailing. View the current level of compensation to be adequate ? Or would those that sail in 2022, and have ten or more years to continue sailing believe the compensation to be inadequate ?
simply respond with adequate or inadequate.
In 1985 what was left of the officers of the formerly union (at least for the deck officers), U.S. tanker fleet were reeling from what was a 40% cut in monetary compensation. Companies affected were Apex Marine, MTL, Maritime Overseas, Ogden Marine, Mormac tankers. Many licensed mariners with those companies had to make drastic lifestyle changes.
I remember a Chief Mate at Apex who’s pick-up line in 1980 was: “… my name is *****, I make a hundred thousand dollars a year.” Which seemed to have the desired results with females who were looking for a man with “peso-nality!” In today’s dollars that would be $348,000. I sailed Chief Mate on tankers for most of the 90’s and never hit $70,000.
The form the BLS used to send out asked for salary or hourly rate. I always thought this was an inaccurate measure. A more accurate measure is annual W-2 earnings. Overtime, performance bonuses and other pay can make a major difference in averages.
Hadn’t had overtime since 90"s. Performance bonuses took over when some fancy lawyers declared some as “Management”. No choice to go with that at the time. The union crew got overtime, which I made sure they got and happily signed off on it. Do what you gotta do at the time. Many study materials followed me up the dock and home. .Worked out ok. Went AMO years later, that was really ok.
So what’s your comparison? Is it for a 22 year old who worked only 6months? What type of vessel; box-boat/ro-ro/tanker/bulker/ What? And remember, the LNG’s of 1976 were THE BEST PAYING JOBS. . .
You said 1976 3ae made about 475k in todays dollars for 6 months.
I said today 3ae of 150k (and that’s being generous, as a more realistic range is 120-150k).
We can see there over 100% pay difference. The type of ship is irrelevant, but since you ask, the range I state is for container, oil tanker, LNG, and some ro-ro.