License stranglehold

OSV= Offshore Supply Vessel.
I worked on them (real ones) from 1978-1990 and then off and on more later. As I understand the term, they are used to ferry SUPPLIES to/from the offshore facilities (and so should be US flag with US crews). If this is not the case, please enlighten us Diesel.
The vessels I was referring to in my earlier posts do NOT do such work. They are not really capable of that type of work anymore since they have had their cement/barite tanks 'removed from service". They are working in other capacities, NOT running supplies, so therefore they are not really OSVs. Some of them have been classed so they can work in multiple ways but when they are working as other than OSV, they are supposed to have unlimited license, NOT OSV restricted license. They do NOT change crews, they do NOT keep unlimited licensees. SO, they are breaking the rules.

[QUOTE=powerabout;83900]Cant you go to the FBI and say there is a nation wide extortion racket going on
USCG in a conspiracy with vessel owners…I think its called racketeering[/QUOTE]

The members could demand their union take action.

It’s not racketeering, it is business.

I would be delighted to enlighten you. To keep this short please peruse
46 CFR 125.160

You will notice the word “or” used quite often in the verbage. As in “or” equipment, “or” supplies, “or” individuals other than crew, “or” as in pretty much any darn vessel that supports offshore mineral exploitation.

You will also notice a distinct lack of mention of anything regarding mud or bulk tanks, but you will notice that lift boats are specifically mentioned as OSV’s. You ever sen a lift boat with mud tanks?

[QUOTE=seadog;83594]Our office informed us that OMSA and Edison Chouest has been lobbying congress to restrict licenses in 2014.
The proposal is that you have to choose to be OSV or Blue Water, once you have chosen you can’t cross over to the other.
The purpose is to eliminate pay competition and have a captive workforce.
Does anyone know anything about this?[/QUOTE]

This is to keep the DPO’s that they are loosing to Drillships and Large DP semis.

Oh how I could write volumes on this matter. I could rant and pontificate and expound and blasphemy and diatribe till I reach the point of self asphyxiation. But I won’t because I am frankly too tired from a long day of travel.

I will only say that the game is rigged against the mariner be they unlimited tonnage or OSV restricted. We all lose in the present system and the companies benefit otherwise why would the system be set up as it is? The only thing that the offshore mariner gets is the nice piece of silver for his labors but you’re not getting much else and you certainly could be…pension plans anyone? There are many reasons why you’re not but if I were to go into them in detail, I would piss many off here because I lay most of them at the feet of the GoM mariners. You cannot blame the companies because they are not charities looking to give any more than they must. That is just how they do business and that is how they intend continuing to do business as long as they can get away with it.

I will close with one very simple example of how the bosses do not give any more that they absolutely must…look at the parking area for the mariners at OCLLC in Des Allemands! How many years has it been like that and why one such microscopic gesture cannot be offered for their employees as to lay down gravel and move some fences? That my friends tells you exactly how it is and how it will remain I am afraid.

Oh well…

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The USCG needs to continue down the current path to fully harmonizing our licensing system with STCW, including the total elimination of all OSV restricted licenses. US vessels need to be admeasured according the ITC rules and awarded tonnage based on their actual size under ITC rules, consistent with the rest of the world. Mariners should be licensed at 3 levels: 500 GT (I.T.C.); 3000 GT (I.T.C.); and unlimited tonnage. There should be no more of these absurd trade restricted licenses (such as OSV) which no other country in the world has, nor should there be anymore of these ridiculous “unlimited” licenses with tonnage limitations. The system that is in place now puts the US at an incredible global disadvantage, and it puts US mariners at an incredible disadvantage.

Vessels that would be “unlimited” tonnage everywhere else in the world without and trade restrictions, should also be unlimited tonnage in the US. So should the US mariners on them.

Now that oil patch vessels are costing as much as $200,000,000 each (i.e., AIVIQ), drilling contractors are requiring that vessels be manned far beyond the COI requirements (i.e., two DPOs on each watch), and oil patch crew wages far exceed union deep sea wages, there is absolutely no longer any reason for any OSV licenses. And no reason not to require unlimited licenses on these very large and expensive vessels that are critical to the safe support of offshore energy production.

The oil companies are making plenty of money, as are the drilling contractors, and the boat companies. As high as mariner wages have become, if they were tripled again, it would not ad more than a couple pennies to a gallon of gas at the pump. The companies do not need special limited licenses to restrain competition for talent or wages. Competition is healthy, and the industry can afford even higher wages.

I would support “grandfathering” existing OSV license holders with more than 3000 GT (I.T.C.) endorsements by providing them with a practical upgrade path to unlimited licenses. All future license holders should have to qualify in the same manner as everyone else in the world.

Obviously, there should also be a practical upgrade path for limited tonnage mariners to unlimited licenses.

Someone on this board who is a mariner licensing historian please step forward. I want to know the history of why there was ever a limited license scheme implemented? If this is such a big deal why hasn’t it been third mate/asst. engineer since time immemorial? At some point in the past was little Timmy Mcallister/Moran not qualified to pass the old verbal/essay license tests? Was there a push by the New York tug mafia to come up with a “lower level” license structure. I’m just throwing stuff out there someone please straighten me out. I’m all for a simplified license structure. My complaint is don’t make the hoops so difficult my only route is to pay $100k to go to college to get it. Again I ask if there is plenty enough unlimited tonnage Gods to cover all these vessels where are they. How come we aren’t over run to the point wages are stagnant and jobs are hard to come by. I’ve also stated in the past it’s funny no one gave a shit about mud boats 10 years ago. Now there are no deep sea jobs and suddenly a 300 ft mud boat is a ship. Now unlimited tonnage mega brainiacs need to come down here and show us dumb rednecks and coonasses how to run a boat. We’ve been doing just fine so far.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;83944]Someone on this board who is a mariner licensing historian please step forward. I want to know the history of why there was ever a limited license scheme implemented? If this is such a big deal why hasn’t it been third mate/asst. engineer since time immemorial? At some point in the past was little Timmy Mcallister/Moran not qualified to pass the old verbal/essay license tests? Was there a push by the New York tug mafia to come up with a “lower level” license structure. I’m just throwing stuff out there someone please straighten me out. I’m all for a simplified license structure. My complaint is don’t make the hoops so difficult my only route is to pay $100k to go to college to get it. Again I ask if there is plenty enough unlimited tonnage Gods to cover all these vessels where are they. How come we aren’t over run to the point wages are stagnant and jobs are hard to come by. I’ve also stated in the past it’s funny no one gave a shit about mud boats 10 years ago. Now there are no deep sea jobs and suddenly a 300 ft mud boat is a ship. Now unlimited tonnage mega brainiacs need to come down here and show us dumb rednecks and coonasses how to run a boat. We’ve been doing just fine so far.[/QUOTE]

You don’t understand Fraq, the OSV companies do not now nor have ever wanted UL mariners. They do go to the various academies to recruit out of necessity but if they could, all OSV mariners would be Bayou born and bred. That is why Large OSV license came about…to keep academy educated carpetbagging effing Yankee assholes away from Fourchon. The OSV companies don’t like our bigship way of thinking, our bigship way of working and our bigship way of wanting. They go to the schools to get the young’uns hoping that they haven’t been despourled yet and maybe one in five can be taught to do it the coonass way and be happy with their piece of silver. At 25 and $125k/year I’d be fucking ecstatic!

btw, if I am not mistaken the old restricted license for the oil patch was Master 500 or 1000tons “Oil and Mineral” and it did not require an exam to get it. You could get one just based on proven time so in other words one could be illiterate and unable to print their name and still get a license then and some of those Neanderthals managed to get vessels to the North Sea from the GoM! I’m amazed they could even read a compass or understand a chart!

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Yeah well times have changed. The great unwashed down here are a few generations removed from that. We have all of our teeth, wear shoes and can read now. The larger companies want professional mariners it’s a selling point for them. They are happy to hire carpet bagging Yankees or locals as long as they can do their job right. It’s been fifteen years since the last time I sailed under a illiterate, toothless, barefoot chain smoking “Captain”. You got a bad taste in your mouth from times past. My other point is if there is no need for these osv licenses now because there are sufficient UL people where are they? Trust me all the companies are in a bind right now. They will hire qualified people no matter there geographical origin. If there is no need for these osv licenses we should be arm pit deep in UL people and no one would have the hiring sign out.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;83950]Yeah well times have changed. The great unwashed down here are a few generations removed from that. We have all of our teeth, wear shoes and can read now. The larger companies want professional mariners it’s a selling point for them. They are happy to hire carpet bagging Yankees or locals as long as they can do their job right. It’s been fifteen years since the last time I sailed under a illiterate, toothless, barefoot chain smoking “Captain”. You got a bad taste in your mouth from times past. My other point is if there is no need for these osv licenses now because there are sufficient UL people where are they. Trust me all the companies are in a bind right now. They will hire qualified people no matter there geographical origin.[/QUOTE]

As they should, but they still want the Northerner big tonnage guys to do it the Bayou way and that is where the rock and hard place meet. Right now, you better be able to talk, think and act Bayou or you’re gonna be relegated a seat at the kiddie table at Thanksgiving. Sure HOS will make a Yankee a master of a vessel that requires a UL license, but how many are masters of the “little” vessels at HOS? Not too many I’d imagine?

Problem is most UL masters feel a 190-280 ft mud boat is beneath them. If one is hired on and has his DPO and can drive the thing sure he will be a master. He may even be a 2nd captain. He’s not gonna bump a career osv captain if he has 3 months of industry experience. Most deep sea guys coming in cant be a Master right now because they don’t have full DP cert. you know as well as I do the industry is in flux right now. New people to this segment new tonnage etc. I also hate to tell you but the bigger companies can’t do things the “bayou way” as you like to say. They work internationally too and that means ISM and all the other alphabet soup has to be followed to the letter. If things were still so backward as you think no mud boat company could work internationally. Like I said You’ve been away for a while and maybe no one told you but we don’t shine shoes no more.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;83954]I also hate to tell you but the bigger companies can’t do things the “bayou way” as you like to say. They work internationally too and that means ISM and all the other alphabet soup has to be followed to the letter. If things were still so backward as you think no mud boat company could work internationally. Like I said You’ve been away for a while and maybe no one told you but we don’t shine shoes no more.[/QUOTE]

Nonsense Fraq…OCLLC is all I have to say in response to that! Tell me now that I am wrong?

What is wrong with OC? They work furin last I checked. Are you saying that all ABS auditors checking OC boats are on the take? You complaining about the parking lot? Most people drive to Fourchon now a days. Why would they need a big parking lot? I’m telling you things have to be on the up and up nowadays. If they don’t have a Yankee captain it’s because he hasn’t put in his time with the company yet. Since when does a guy get hired off the street and goes immediately to Master? The chief mate second captain or whatever he wants to be called on my boat is from the left coast. He has a UL masters license and sailed deep sea most of his career. He could master on a boat but until they are built there isn’t a spot. I have two close friends from New England both are mud boat Masters. I’m not saying cronyism or nepotism doesn’t happen down here. I would run into the same thing if I went to New York for a tug job regardless of my bonafides.

Now now gentleman, settle down.

The United States is probably the only industrialised, civilized, modern maritime nation that does not follow the IMO rules. They act like they want to follow and play by the rules but they just don’t do it. Our government still has not fully complied with STCW 95 yet. If they did follow IMO rules this entire discussion would not be happening, because there would be no such thing as a 6000ITC or an OSV license. All the rule beaters would be gone or never invented in the first place , for example the 200 foot supply boats that Abdon Calais has that magicily come in under 100 GT and can legally be run with a 4 man crew. All the ATB’s in the whole country would have never been invented. Those guys would be on mini ships. And the list could go on forever. All of this was done so that the vessel owners could get rich, and they just throw us a bone when they feel like it. Anyone that says this country is not corrupt, is either blind or dumb. It is one of the more corrupt country’s in the world, it is just on a larger scale. You may not be able to pay the local police officer off, to get you out of a speeding ticket. However if you have enough money you can buy a senator or congressman and get pretty much what ever you want. Heck they have already proven that you can buy the presidency, if you have a couple hundred billion dollars to spare.

The whole system is in disaray, beyond broken, and corrupt, to the point that it can never be fixed. We would have to shoot all the politicans and lawyers, then start over to ever be able to fix this machine. Until someone mans up and fires the first shot, I just don’t see much ever changing.

Look at the Norwegians, they run every boat they have like a ship, even the supply boats. There license structure is simple, they work 2 on 4 off and still make more than us, and the boat owners obvious still make money. Now what is wrong with this picture. Greed, that is what!!! Greed from the vessel owners and our own elected politicans!!! Politicans are suppposed to work for us, instead they work for the highest bidder, who ever that may be today.

[QUOTE=ChiefRob;83959]Now now gentleman, settle down.

The United States is probably the only industrialised, civilized, modern maritime nation that does not follow the IMO rules. They act like they want to follow and play by the rules but they just don’t do it. Our government still has not fully complied with STCW 95 yet. If they did follow IMO rules this entire discussion would not be happening, because there would be no such thing as a 6000ITC or an OSV license. All the rule beaters would be gone or never invented in the first place , for example the 200 foot supply boats that Abdon Calais has that magicily come in under 100 GT and can legally be run with a 4 man crew. All the ATB’s in the whole country would have never been invented. Those guys would be on mini ships. And the list could go on forever. All of this was done so that the vessel owners could get rich, and they just throw us a bone when they feel like it. Anyone that says this country is not corrupt, is either blind or dumb. It is one of the more corrupt country’s in the world, it is just on a larger scale. You may not be able to pay the local police officer off, to get you out of a speeding ticket. However if you have enough money you can buy a senator or congressman and get pretty much what ever you want. Heck they have already proven that you can buy the presidency, if you have a couple hundred billion dollars to spare.

The whole system is in disaray, beyond broken, and corrupt, to the point that it can never be fixed. We would have to shoot all the politicans and lawyers, then start over to ever be able to fix this machine. Until someone mans up and fires the first shot, I just don’t see much ever changing.

Look at the Norwegians, they run every boat they have like a ship, even the supply boats. There license structure is simple, they work 2 on 4 off and still make more than us, and the boat owners obvious still make money. Now what is wrong with this picture. Greed, that is what!!! Greed from the vessel owners and our own elected politicans!!! Politicans are suppposed to work for us, instead they work for the highest bidder, who ever that may be today.[/QUOTE]

Norwegians are some of the most highly unionized workers in the world and the labor laws reflect that. But the unions and management work as a team, usually, and most companies have union representatives on their board of directors. Somehow though the companies still make a nice profit and even expand into the USA.
Such a thing would never work in the USA though because it would be called “socialist” which is another way of saying it would put too many lobbyists, lawyers and politicians out of their multi-million dollar making jobs.

[QUOTE=tengineer;83974]Such a thing would never work in the USA though because it would be called “socialist” which is another way of saying it would put too many lobbyists, lawyers and politicians out of their multi-million dollar making jobs.[/QUOTE]

Heaven forbid anything should threaten the lifestyle of our parasites.

Find one measure of a nation’s health, happiness, education, or standard of living where our politicians and their lobbyist parasites (can you have a parasite living on a parasite?) have made things better here than in Norway. The US is going the way of the American merchant marine for the same reasons.

On dual classed vessels that typically operate under subchapter L (OSV) and then switch to operate under subchapter I (cargo & misc) and have several positions filled with OSV restricted licenses, the operators typically get a waiver from the COPT to allow those people to stay on board in the interest of safety rather than bring on non restricted trade or unlimited (if required) guys that are not familiar with the vessel.

[QUOTE=Azimuth;83977]… several positions filled with OSV restricted licenses, the operators typically get a waiver from the COPT to allow those people to stay on board in the interest of safety rather than bring on unlimited guys that are not familiar with the vessel.[/QUOTE]

If the unlimited guys were working for less money how long do you think it would take the Coast Guard to decide that the “better trained more highly qualified” mariners should be running the boats? I’d put my money on the CG flipping if the company wants the higher paid crew gone. In the “interest of safety” of course. It’s happened before.

K.C.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;83944]Someone on this board who is a mariner licensing historian please step forward. I want to know the history of why there was ever a limited license scheme implemented? If this is such a big deal why hasn’t it been third mate/asst. engineer since time immemorial? At some point in the past was little Timmy Mcallister/Moran not qualified to pass the old verbal/essay license tests? Was there a push by the New York tug mafia to come up with a “lower level” license structure. I’m just throwing stuff out there someone please straighten me out. I’m all for a simplified license structure. My complaint is don’t make the hoops so difficult my only route is to pay $100k to go to college to get it. Again I ask if there is plenty enough unlimited tonnage Gods to cover all these vessels where are they. How come we aren’t over run to the point wages are stagnant and jobs are hard to come by. I’ve also stated in the past it’s funny no one gave a shit about mud boats 10 years ago. Now there are no deep sea jobs and suddenly a 300 ft mud boat is a ship. Now unlimited tonnage mega brainiacs need to come down here and show us dumb rednecks and coonasses how to run a boat. We’ve been doing just fine so far.[/QUOTE]

It’s not the limited tonnage licenses that are the issue being discussed. It is the OSV restricted license. Other countries have limited tonnage as well, just not other trade restricted licenses.