Not just one personal connection my friend. Most academy grads (Not just KP) have great foundation. Agree, paperwork is and will continue to be a giant pain in the ass. I hated it. My hope is that all the newbies get “Lucky” and get on with a good crew and vessel willing to give them a shot. It is up to the cadets to prove themselves worthy of that time spent training/mentoring them.
Guess your SMS isn’t the gold standard to be measured by then lol
It’s helpful for holding doors open 
In some ways it’s nice, in some ways not so much. It gives you leeway that you might not otherwise get, but that leeway can also just be slack in your hangin’ rope. The company is pretty proactive in adding and modifying as needed but we usually have to bring it up for it to happen.
So there’s nothing in the ISM code that says you have to write a procedure to cover the operation of the OWS but, it seems like sound logic.
However, ISM does cover training, crew, and resources. Many companies don’t have a specific cadet training program and that’s ok too, but, many times, companies hire the cadets that worked for them. (International companies anyway) they figure if they train them on board in their process, why not hire them later?
US flag, yeah… there’s not the same type of continuity in place… lots of this is due to union pressures and what not.
But, for the sake of figuring you’ll be running into these people at some point down the road, why not?
I’m not sure why the engine Cadet that turned up decided on engineering as a vocation but you certainly had a blank sheet to work with and on a busy ship would have demanded the patience of a saint.
My only experience sailing with engineer graduates was in the navy and in our system had completed the same practical time as an apprentice on the tools in the dockyard while at college. Engineeer Officers are always engineers and remain so.
Some of the criteria for Jones Act Fleet subsidizing money is accepting cadets. Also to have anti-harassment procedures in place. If you remember a few years ago KP stopped shipping out commercially until the companies had a plan/SMS on the books. That may explain why some SMS have changed in the last few years. No policy,no money. Does not state you have to mentor/train them, but treat them fairly while aboard. Agree with a post here, why not help them, they may come back down the road and shake your hand.
KIngs Point does send cadets out to sea on commercial, pretty much exclusively, but “shiphandling training”, they are sailing deep sea so not so much. If you want shiphandling training with a similar, mostly commercial experience, try Great Lakes Maritime Academy. To graduate you have to pass a Pilot’s Exam for the Great Lakes, plus the Thirds’ Mate Oceans test. While some time is spent on the training ship, the concentration while there is on getting the required trips over the waters and practical shiphandling experience, maybe not so much docking but driving the ship in the rivers and meeting traffic. The majority of time is spent on Deep Sea and Great Lakes vessels and they get lots of hands on if they want it. There are a large number of student’s who come to GLMA not just to get the education but to prepare themselves for a potential pilot job. Many students from Louisiana and Texas besides everywhere else, and many students with prior degrees or careers, no age limit. A wide variety of students will be your compatriots. I am a proud KP Grad, a retired Great Lakes Captain and I teach on the GLMA summer cruise.
Yup, seen that happen more than once.
GLMA is an awesome school. My hat is off to you for helping train our future mariners.
I’d be willing to bet even cadet shipping the Great Lakes as a deck cadet from any academy would be a worthwhile endeavor with regards to ship handling. I cadet shipped up there and have nothing but respect for the Captains and Mates sailing the narrows, maneuvering locks, docking, and shifting thousand foot ships with no tug assist and no separate pilots (as mentioned they almost all have pilotage).
Maybe it was the times, but when I went through Sea Year as an engine cadet, I was assigned to 6 ships. Maybe it was my attitude, but I didn’t expect to go through any specific training, but to work as part of the engine crew. And work, I did. I really only had one ship where there was an apparent issue with the CE (and I have elaborated in other posts), but it was my 5th ship at that point, and I just went to work. I got quite a bit out of Sea Year that I don’t think that I would have on a schoolship. That said, I think that there is a lot more grunt work to be done as an engine cadet than a deck cadet. . .
I think you’re right - different times. I did the same but, the issue is self fulfilling… hear me out.
I go on the ship not expecting anything in particular.
Those people on the ship see me not expecting anything and they in turn, don’t expect to have to do anything in particular.
My advice to the next generation of cadets tells a tale of non-expectations and hence forth, we have a system of cadets getting on and off, not expecting anything.
However… if we hold the expectations that cadets should help the engineers/mates in order to learn, and then, the engineers/mates should be teaching (no Matter what school anyone is from…) the chain is broken. Now, if the management system had to dictate this in order to break that thinking, then that’s what needs to be done. If people are just doing this one their own, good on them.
I got on ships that had it both ways - my brother only ever cadet sailed on west coast pineapple traders, his sea experience and mine were FAR different.
Cadet shipping is definitely hit or miss. I wasn’t allowed near the helm on mine and learned nearly nothing about ship handling but tolerated it because I wanted a shot working for the company after I graduated. The training ship is geared for teaching, a tired or disinterested officer is not.
Having dealt with people from all the schools, I’d have to say the graduates from KP don’t really impress me more than any others, other than their lack of student loans, and at least the ones I know, their genuine humility.
On the other hand, many hawespipers for whatever reason seem to have all the answers about schools they’ve never attended and fully misinformed impressions of all the graduates before they meet them.
So, long answer, ship handling, not really in a practical sense.
Ha, yeah, more than 100 posts into the thread… ship handling, right, that was the topic
Cmakin has a clue to the business, no matter what academy you attended or didn’t. As some reference “You didn’t attend an Academy” I call bullshit. I hawespiped and it was very rewarding. My hands were oily and dirty before you picked up a pencil. We were are all junior sailors at one time or another. Starting out green, we looked for mentors and decent people who would give us a shot. We had to earn the time given, it was working with some people that worked their balls off and gave you the time of day. I am forever grateful to those people. Never took them for granted. And would encourage the younger fellows on this site to respect their elders, they’ve seen a lot of things you haven’t and isn’t in the books… Because of the current mindset of the vessel owners and insurance companies, encouraged my son to go to KP. Did that make him a better sailor, hell no. It was the mentors that gave a shit and the effort put forward. Try it sometime, your career depends on it.
I think it was Mass Maritime that has agreements with the companies they sent cadets to along the lines of “4 hours on deck, 4 hours on the bridge, and 4 hours on the sea project daily”. We worked a deal with the cadet where he’d go wherever was working and he’d get equal thirds over his hitch but maybe not an even split every day. (Like, if we’re sitting at the dock there’s nothing to learn on the bridge so work on deck maintenance and sea project.)
Seems like most mariners don’t consider basic maneuvers, like making a turn to be “shiphandling” but it’s still something that a mate should know how to do and is not that hard to teach.
Probably not what the OP had in mind though.
Correct, and I think from an academy standpoint what I call shiphandling is flawed or biased because of what we did in the classes with the title “Shiphandling.” Also before you even take any major related classes you’ve steered the training ship. Might not have been great, but you’ve made a turn or a course change, so I put less stock in being able to turn the ship as opposed to being able to complete a Williamson or maneuver in narrow channels in regards to what I consider shiphandling.
Been a rough month, have lost three mariners younger than myself that were dear to me. A Mass Maritime engineer in the bunch that loved Harleys… He was an awesome frigging guy 15 years younger than me. I will miss his Sunday Bloody Mary calls. RIP Ricky
Look people…I went to that school starting 40years ago and can say that back then, any and all training was merchant ship based and frankly was not even very good at that. The idea that somehow the concept as being a cadet aboard working merchant ship actually teaches and trains was quite laughable, unless some officer aboard one of the ships that a cadet served on made any effort to personally try to impart knowledge to the aspiring young officer. No officer aboard any ship I was a cadet aboard did that. The very best I got was to actually do manual radar plotting in some coastal waters on one of two radars on the bridge otherwise never once given an opportunity to conn the vessel with other ships in the vicinity.
I truly did not become a competent officer with any ability until my first ship as a third mate and had to actually do what I was trained to do but never actually had previously. Luckily I had a master who was older and had some understanding and forgiveness for a young man and did not rip my gut through my ass when I did something which should have been done differently. Those moments were few fortunately and I picked it all up pretty quickly so that by the time we entered the Straits of Malacca at night he was able to just sit there and allow me to conn the vessel through all the traffic which sometimes meant issuing helm orders which were a degree or two to pass fishing vessels a cable off. That night I did become a real bona fide deck officer who could do the job because I knew he had given me approval and acceptance to do it all on my own. He later said if he didn’t trust me to conn the ship safely he would have brought the chief mate up to do it which cemented my confidence in myself forever. I doubt there are any masters today who would do for me what he did? His name was Andrew Storer and he was well into his 70’s back then in 1986 and was a veteran WWII mariner who is long gone from the world but I will never forget him from all the dozens of other masters I had to serve in later years (more than a couple of which were flaming assholes)
KP trains kids to pass the license exam…that is all they care to do. End of discussion!