I love it...even a serving admiral says the LCS's are stoopid warships!

$37B for 52 ships! And ships without firepower…this is just grand. Oh,how I just love the Navee!

[B]Ships Costing $37 Billion Lack Firepower, U.S. Commander Warns [/B]
March 28, 2013

The U.S. Navy’s troubled Littoral Combat Ship, a vessel intended to be small and speedy for use in shallow waters close to shore, lacks the firepower it needs, a top U.S. navy commander said in a classified memo.

Vice Admiral Tom Copeman, the commander of naval surface forces, called on the Navy to consider a ship with more offensive capability after the first 24 vessels are built, according to a Navy official who asked not to be identified discussing the confidential document.

Copeman’s memo, prepared late last year at the request of Admiral Jonathan Greenert, the chief of naval operations, indicates the Navy may be starting to re-examine the $37 billion program. A review could lead to an eventual redesign of the ship or the development of an entirely new vessel.

“He’s raising issues which no one with active-duty stars on their shoulders has said before,” said Norman Polmar, an independent naval analyst and author who’s spoken to Navy officials about Copeman’s memo. “He’s not playing the total party line. I think it will have an impact on people expressing their views.”

Producing a ship that can accommodate larger guns or Harpoon anti-ship missiles “would be a major redesign,” Polmar said in an interview. “It will be real work to put major weapons on the ship.”

The Littoral Combat Ship – derided by critics inside the Navy as the “Little Crappy Ship”-- has been beset by troubles since 2005 as the price doubled to $440 million per vessel.

Two Versions

Two versions are now being built: A steel-hulled vessel made in Marinette, Wisconsin, by a team led by Lockheed Martin Corp., and an aluminum trimaran built in Mobile, Alabama, by a group led by Austal Ltd. Lockheed’s first ship developed a crack in the hull, and Austal’s vessel had corrosion problems.

Conceived in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the ship was designed to replace aging frigates and other vessels. It’s intended to perform missions such as clearing mines, hunting submarines, interdicting drugs and providing humanitarian relief.

Nothing has haunted the LCS more than the perception that both variants are too lightly armed and may not survive an enemy attack. The Pentagon’s chief weapons tester has cited flaws with the ship’s guns and concluded that its helicopter isn’t powerful enough to tow mine-hunting equipment.

The ship “is not expected to be survivable in that it is not expected to maintain mission capability after taking a significant hit in a hostile combat environment,” Michael Gilmore, the weapons tester, said in a January report.

‘Designed for Speed’

Until now, Navy officials have maintained that the ship has sufficient defenses to perform its missions while working in tandem with the rest of a battle group.

“These ships are designed for speed,” Rear Admiral Tom Eccles, deputy commander for naval systems engineering at the Naval Sea Systems Command, said at a Surface Navy Association conference in January. “They’re designed to be in the fight and then get out of the fight when it’s required.”

Copeman’s assessment suggests that the Navy may rethink that strategy. In a speech at the same Navy association conference, Copeman spoke publicly about the possibility of creating a “Super LCS,” likening it to the evolution in fighter jets from the F/A-18 Hornet to the Super Hornet. The newer plane is a larger version of the aircraft built by Chicago-based Boeing Co., with longer range and more endurance than its predecessor.

The vice admiral’s memo calls for a vessel that can operate independently rather than traveling under the protection of better-armed ships, according to a government official familiar with the document who isn’t in the Navy and asked to not be identified.

‘We’re Out-Gunned’

“It’s born of this nagging fear in the surface warfare community and elsewhere that we’re out-gunned by the Chinese, who have a series of surface-to-surface missiles,” said Bryan McGrath, a retired naval officer who commanded a destroyer.

Outfitting the LCS with heavy-duty missiles or guns would add weight, and “additional weight means a loss in both speed and endurance,” said McGrath, a critic of the Littoral Combat Ship who is director of consulting at Delex Systems Inc. in Herndon, Virginia.

The Navy projects that the $37 billion program will buy 52 ships. Of those, four have been built and the Navy has agreed to buy 20 more through 2015.

“We’re committed to 52 LCS’s,” Captain Danny Hernandez, chief spokesman for Greenert, the chief of naval operations, said when asked about Copeman’s memo.

‘Thoughtful Look’

Lockheed, based in Bethesda, Maryland, is building its Littoral Combat Ships in partnership with Marinette Marine Corp., a subsidiary of Fincantieri SpA, based in Trieste, Italy. The other version is made by Austal, based in Henderson, Australia, in partnership with Falls Church, Virginia-based General Dynamics Corp.

Greenert requested the memo from Copeman, which was entitled “Vision for the 2025 Surface Fleet” and was previously reported by Defense News. The comments on the LCS are three paragraphs in a 10-page document on the future of the Navy’s surface fleet.

“He appreciated the thoughtful look he gave into the future,” Hernandez said of Greenert’s reaction to the memo. He said the Navy chief considered Copeman’s proposals to be “interesting and useful.”

Those who have read Copeman’s recommendation offered differing interpretations of the changes he envisions. While the Navy official who asked to not be identified said the current LCS designs could be revised, the other government official said the proposed changes would amount to developing a new type of ship.

‘Offensive Power’

“There’s inexpensive ways, less expensive ways, to dramatically increase the offensive power of our surface fleet, I think, without spending hundred, tens and tens of millions of dollars on research and development and come up with new classes of ships,” Copeman said in the January speech, according to a transcript. “I think we can look at what we’ve got, and what we’ve got on the drawing boards right now, and take great advantage of that.”

Copeman’s memo didn’t discuss whether one of the two current designs should be scrapped or whether just one version should be used as the base model for future improvements, the Navy official said.

Building both versions of the ship, which have different designs and parts, adds about $400 million in operating and maintenance costs over the lifetime of the vessels, according to Rear Admiral James Murdoch, who oversees the ship’s procurement.

Copyright 2013 Bloomberg.
David Lerman --With assistance from Tony Capaccio in Washington. Editors: Larry Liebert, Michael Shepard

FUCKING STOOPID BRASS HATTED BOOBS!

.

Good article, we totally new MOAR ships with MOARRR guns! People wonder why so much govt money gets wasted. We spent a ton of money figuring out what ship we wanted as an LCS in the first place. Then someone says let’s go back to the drawing board.

The Germans designed these puppies for South Africa at about half the price of the LCS, and these don’t come from the factory neutered.
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6524:fact-file-valour-class-small-guided-missile-frigates-&catid=79:fact-files&Itemid=159
What does or will the LCS do better? Any idea what it costs the Chinese to build their type 54 and type 56 frigates? Probably not a good idea
for an LCS to have an argument over South China Sea transit rights with one of those. At equivalent cost, it would probably be closer to 1 LCS vs a squadron of type 53’s 54’s and 56’s. “Commander Wilke, I don’t understand what the Chinese sailor is yelling, but he is reaching towards us with what appears to be very large jumper cables. And he’s laughing.”

USS Freedom’s first overseas deployment to Southeast Asia has been marred by two more power outages


“These appear to be growing pains that many of the Navy’s first-of-class ships experience,” James says [U.S. Pacific Fleet spokesman Darryn James]

here’s a very interesting graphic…really like the FAC’s. The Chinese can send swarms of these little guys like we used to do with the PT’s in WWII. More firepower per foot of length than any warship ever built!

I don’t understand why we keep re-inventing the wheel. The Chinese models you posted could easily be adapted to US use and built here. It seems that we are in love with our white elephants.

Bigger is better - aka “Penis envy”.

We have to get over it.

Those type 22s look pretty cool. Here I was thinking they only had crappy stuff. I think the US Foreign affairs experts really downplay how much Chinese military tech is catching up.

I remember reading years ago how the PT boats of WWII were generally useless and really didn’t do a lot of damage. Still, would be a blast to run along at high speeds acting like bad assed war ship.

Here is a good read on them:

http://www.thehistorychannelclub.com/articles/articletype/articleview/articleid/1533/pt-boats-modern-marvels

I’ve been on a few ops with both the Freedom and Independence. And, a lot of these ops were no-goes due to many glitches with their weapons/critical systems. You name it, it’s happened. One thing about the Freedom is that either it goes so fast its hull has lost its top coat, or its original paint job wasn’t too hot. Last time we worked with her back in December/January you could see a lot of primer exposed on her hull.

[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);104157]I remember reading years ago how the PT boats of WWII were generally useless and really didn’t do a lot of damage.[/QUOTE]

what was the problem I have read is that many PT crews were just scared shitless that their vessels were wooden and were without anything to stop even a machinegun bullet so most attacks made by PT’s during the War were from a pretty long distance from their targets. Also, the US torpedoes were shit for the whole first half of the War anyway so even if you got close, they fucked up in their run or the detonators failed to set off the charge.

Can’t really blame the Mosquito Boat guys tho, the US was not a Kamikaze force like the Japanese or Soviets or Germans even where there was no option but to die in the fight.

[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);104157]I remember reading years ago how the PT boats of WWII were generally useless and really didn’t do a lot of damage. Still, would be a blast to run along at high speeds acting like bad assed war ship. [/QUOTE]

Xmsccapt(ret) - To put it succinctly, you really are a pompous ass hole.
You’re welcome ~
Do Da - Do Da
I’m not attacking you, I simply think you are a pompous ass hole.
You may think the same of me.
Do Da - Do Da

What do you think of General Jimmy Doolittle, Oh pompous southern boy?

One more before I need to get off this thread.
I despise those who bite the hand that feeds. You collect your well deserved retirement from the Federal Government, have your free health insurance and God only knows what other perks you claim, yet you constantly post negative posts of what you are now sucking-off. I am so glad we never sailed together. Your Dad was a fighter, you are not. Could that be be the reason?

[QUOTE=Ctony;104163]I’ve been on a few ops with both the Freedom and Independence. And, a lot of these ops were no-goes due to many glitches with their weapons/critical systems. You name it, it’s happened. One thing about the Freedom is that either it goes so fast its hull has lost its top coat, or its original paint job wasn’t too hot. Last time we worked with her back in December/January you could see a lot of primer exposed on her hull.[/QUOTE]

The paint glitches could be a combination of factors. Hull shape and water turbulence along with prep and application. I learned a lot about paints hanging around the paint rep when I was a port engineer. There’s a real art and science to doing it right.

It’s Happy Hour at my spread. I’m outta here.
Cheers

The achilles heel of the PT boat at least early in the war was the Mk8 torpedo. Later these were replaced by the Mk13 and of course they had depth charges and mines as well. The boats were not ineffective…while they could not really take on the Japanese heavy tonnage with great success, they systematically picked off the supply barges and small craft, and thus made life miserable for tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers encamped in the Pacific islands who were literally starving at the end…shortening the war for sure. They also laid mines and did recon work. They did it all, and we could not have won the war in the Pacific without them. It took a lot of guts to ride around in a wooden craft with almost no protection which was easily spotted from the air…which is why they did most raids at night.

Then there’s PT 109, what an amazing survival story that was. People should google that and prepare to be awed. Dr. Robert Ballard found the wreck about 10 years ago, right in the area Kennedy said it would be.

Sounds like you need another drink… Where do I get this free health care? I pay for that each month from my well earned retirement check. Yea, good thing we didn’t sail together. You seem rather emotional … Not a quality I looked for in my officers and crew.

I was not in the least blaming the men than manned the PT. I was pointing out that history has shown us that they were not all that effective in battle, this fact even echoed by a squadron commander… I don’t blame anyone for hosting reservations of charging a war ship with a wooden hull and indeed what I meant by a " real war ship". I think they only reason they got any light in post war years was mainly due to Kennedy commanding one ( and getting run over). There was the movie PT 109, and the 60s sitcom McHale’s, again perhaps due mainly to the light shed on the PT due to Kennedy’s involvement. Without Kennedy’s election I doubt we would have ever heard much about the PT.

[QUOTE=Xmsccapt(ret);104205]Sounds like you need another drink… Where do I get this free health care? I pay for that each month from my well earned retirement check. Yea, good thing we didn’t sail together. You seem rather emotional … Not a quality I looked for in my officers and crew.[/QUOTE]

I suppose this means we will never be at the shooting range together. :smiley:
Yea, I can get a little crazy, especially with a Full Moon.
I’m kind of lucky that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M01_2CKL6PU

It’s a beautiful crisp Easter Sunday morning up here in The Wilds. It’s a quality I looked for in my life.

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/7241/img0101mz.jpg

I would very much like a day at the range together, we could discuss the finer points of hold under at 250 with a 500 zero, hold over at 1000, and mildot correction for winds at various speeds and direction at various distances, Would be great fun. btw, you know nothing of my military service before shipping :slight_smile: Happy Easter. Enjoy your day up in the wilds from a southern boy.