I guess i’m curious why only 5 years? AMO has currently eight 3/m jobs posted. 4 of them on tankers, 1 LMSR (MSC) and 3 CONROs (PR service). all are less then 8 years old aside from the LMSR. What do you plan to do after 5 years? In less than 8 years, if you have a good head on your shoulders you could make Captain. Even though you’ve attained a 3/m USCG licence. You will need the help of senior officers to advance. Coming into it with an expiration date may hobble you - as i know I’d be hesitant to invest time into someone who only wanted to do 5 years. Want to start a family? Have children? Then that’s a different story, but the need is still the same regardless.
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Correct.
I would have thought the companies would try to keep the benefit number down to keep their contributions lower. Make up for the lower vacation days by increasing the overtime pay.
I looked at Cal & Schuyler
Required for all Deck licenses at Cal.
It is not required for Engine Degrees paired with a deck license at Schuyler, but the catalog states
“Note: Though not required for your license, students who plan to sail are strongly
advised to take MT 435 (Maritime Security) in addition to the courses above”
That’s what it seems like, so whenever I hear 30/30 I automatically think it’s a low number. I think guys just have to slow down and read the whole contract to see if it’s really as great as the union is saying it is. With the 401k match they’re pushing now a days, that comes from a percentage of your ship base pay. So a lot of factors to assess if you’d rather have your ship pay high or your vacation pay high.
Keep in mind for those that receive a defined benefit pension. Pension is calculated using base pay and years credited. When it comes time for those calculations to be made you want as high a base a possible AND 365 days credit per year.
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Thank you, exactly my point. My last couple contracts they seem to be splitting it. Defined Contribution based off vacation base, and 401k match off shipboard base.
I would definitely prefer to have 4% of working base in a 401k vs 4% of benefits base in an MPB and that’s what the newer contracts seem to be going towards.
False narrative. I’ve done 29 years on dredge ships, 21 on 21 off, call home every night (well I started pre cell phone so that sucked), you can plan your entire year ahead of time knowing exactly when you will crewchange. I’ve had several guys go shoreside “to be with family” only to realize that you don’t even see your kids during the week, but yes you get to sleep at home. I was the only dad able to do all the field trips and school functions when I was home, because my home time was 100% mine. After 10 years with my company Captains get 4 weeks vacation, so I actually only sail for 5 months out of the year. You can’t beat that with a stick!
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Hey Bob,
Can you imagine having that as your mindset going into a new job? Saying “I’m only going to be here 5 years anyway” just about guarantees poor job performance. I think this kid is in for a rude awakening in the real world.
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I think it depends on where he sails. If he gets on a dredge or tug I’d say you’re probably right. No one is going to want to invest any time or effort in training beyond the bare minimum because why bother. If he goes deep sea I think it would be a different experience. The trips are longer, more isolating, and it doesn’t involve as much “hands on training” as far as ship/boat handling goes. I don’t think automatically dismissing him because he only wants to sail for 5 years is the right attitude.
On the other hand, I’d say going to school for 4 years only to sail for 5 is a waste of money and if he goes to shoreside to some shipping companies office, he’ll have a hard time getting any respect or have anyone take him seriously on the ships he’s managing/working with. Nothing worse than some guy in the office starting his introduction with “yeah I sailed 3M for a while” as a bonafides.
Also, just about everyone you meet in this industry says “yeah I’m only going to sail x amount of years” and they end up doing 25 or 30 because they’re addictrd to the life style.
To the OP, don’t show up anywhere and say “I’m only here for 5 years.” Also, start working on an exit plan like grad school or something because having “2nd Mate Unlimited” on your resume doesn’t mean much. There’s a million of those guys out there all looking for a better shoreside gig.
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I’ve done Tugs, (NY HBR, & Coastal) Drillships, Oil Spill Recovery in my 30 years of sailing. Today Sailing DS is not nearly as isolating as Coastal Tugs were 25 years ago. Ship handling is key for a 3/M but they don’t get much of it other than watch. It’s safety and Cargo with Nav watch from what i’ve seen DS. And with deference to the 3/m’s I work with they usually don’t know what they don’t know. The USCG Licence progression where you get your 2/m with seatime has really done us (as an industry) no favors. [same goes for engineers as well] “Poof” you’re a 2nd and a year of seatime is not enough IMHO to progress from 3rd to 2nd in all but a few circumstances. The mindset to work only for 5 years is kind of a failure mindset in my opinion. Expending resources for an individual who will be out in 5 is a waste. For an industry that is gasping critically to keep viable we need to work hard at promoting it to the young men and women earlier. At the Highschool level. The biggest beneift currently is the time off ratio. But we should look at the exploring, if not better pay, then better retirement. Tax free income and other benefits or the USMM is going to simply die out in my lifetime.
Again, this is only in IMHO.
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This seems to be the current plan in my opinion. Instead of raising wages or instituting benefits that other countries mariners are afforded, it seems to be a long game of depressing the pool of labor to the point that they can justify starting a second U.S. Flag or just letting foreigners work U.S. Flag period.
There is a lot that could be done to attract young Americans to the industry. I just don’t feel the industry as a whole is interested in that.
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Isolating probably wasn’t the correct way to describe it. I meant more so that you can have a green 3M on the bridge for watch and not always be babysitting him. There’s usually enough sea room they can maneuver (or the other ship can maneuver) without incident. The captain also has either and ECDIS or RADAR repeater in his office he can watch while he’s down below. Basically what I meant was training a 3M deep sea vs tugs/dredges/ferries etc., does not require as much effort from Captain/crew.
Just because you get the ticket doesn’t mean you really know anything. Who you hire as 2M/2AE is up to the company/captain/chief for input. I don’t think adding another set of tests would really do anything to make that process any better. Just because you went 7/7 on you 3rd’s test doesn’t mean you know anything, as we all can attest too. I just don’t see what process should be put in place instead.
To me that’s a failure in the industry and academy structured training programs. Not every ship or company is run like MSC or the TAGOS of past. Even time with 70 day hitches is very normal within AMO, and there plenty of mariners who have a spouse and kids at home. I think having strictly geriatrics teaching at the academy’s who sailed back when doing a 6 month was the norm because you couldn’t get a relief foreign has really misconstrued the truth to modern day sailing.
I definitely agree with this, with the caveat that it’s sold to the younger generation as something doesn’t require you to be single or essentially an absent father/husband/wife/mother. WiFi on ships, shorter hitches, better benefits, etc have made modern sailing a great career.
It feels like the older generation (not specifically meaning you, just any generation older than oneself) has been saying this forever, yet it’s still around. Is it dying a very slow and painful death? Maybe. But the way you counteract that isn’t by increasing benefits to attract mariners (which definitely doesn’t hurt), it’s to get companies/government to invest more in shipping. The government ships will always be around for a national defense plan. But the commercial ships? Who knows. There was a Mariner shortage last year, but the AMO board isn’t half as full as it was 4 months ago, and there’s a whole crop of fresh 3AE’s graduating in a few months to fill those billets if the unions can convince them to join. A lot of companies raised wages, gave out sign on bonuses, added wifi, etc to get guys to stay or take jobs and it seemed to work. The issue is more so that there aren’t any new ships being built or flagged in. The amount of jobs in finite not because of the amount of mariners, but because of the amount of companies with US flag ships.
Yes there is. It’s when the above person puts “Captain” on their business card because they upgraded to 2M and Master 1,600 ton when they quit sailing.
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I equate those as being the same. I know a couple 3M’s who do that because they have a 100 ton and run fishing boats.
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This is the most laughable quote I have ever read. If you don’t think the person is capable of performing as a 2nd- easy… don’t promote them or fire them.
Actually, upgrading based on just seatime HAS done significant favors for our industry. For most of history mariners where upgraded based on competency and experience at sea not some pointless test that has little to do with your actual job. The USCG testing of mariners is basically just seeing if you are good at testing. Our crewing crises would be worse if we were still testing every level.
I am a believer that there should be only two tests. An unlicensed and a licensed test.
You sound like one of those people that wants to just test every upgrade and make it harder for people to progress because you are already at the top. I can’t blame you for wanting to shorten the supply of people at the top so you can demand higher wages…But don’t try to play it off that it would be better for the industry as a whole.
Be honest
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I disagree. In fact I think it’s the opposite. A year of sea time is enough to progress in all but a few cases.
My problem is the USCG giving a 1,600 ton Masters license to someone with only a year of sea time as mate. Especially because in most cases (ie academy grads) that’s their only real sea time.
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You have to test for this now. Theres no longer an equivalency where they just hand you the license when you ask
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You always had to test, but the test is irrelevant. They barely have the experience necessary to be a competent mate, they absolutely don’t have the experience necessary to be master.
There’s a lot of career second mates out there that would disagree, and I would too. What do you think is the solution then? You have to sail master unlimited to also be master 1,600? I don’t see a way to address it administratively.
Also; if you hire a guy to be a master on your 1,600 vessel who only has experience as a 2M on unlimited tonnage ships and it’s his first gig, that’s on you for hiring someone with no experience. You can always ask for a resume and do an interview to gauge where they’re at professionally.
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