I’m another hawsepiper. Although I had a college degree, I decided to go to sea. It was a long haul but I got my license and sailed for 26 years. The experience and knowledge I gained as AB/Boatswain were invaluable when sailing as Chief Mate and Master.
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The law doesn’t lie. I’m super curious though, it doesn’t specify a Bachelor’s degree
“Graduation from the mechanical or electrical engineering course of a school of technology accredited by the ABET, together with 6 months of service in the engine department of steam, motor, or gas turbine-propelled vessels”
Could one get an ABET accredited Associate’s in mechanical or electrical engineering (which are quite common), sail for 6 months as a wiper, and become a 3rd A/E?
Many have earned an ABET mechanical or electrical engineering degree, gathered the required sea time (“service in the engine department”), and then took the test to get a national 3A/E license.
My understanding that all ABET degrees are four-year bachelor degrees. The term “associates degree” usually means two-year. But if you can somehow produce an official paper that shows an ABET associate degree in ME/EE, then you satisfy the words in the law.
It won’t get you STCW, which you are likely going to need to work as a 3rd AE anywhere but the Great Lakes.
Come-on man, you chastise others this generic “STCW”.
OpenOceans: It won’t get STCW OICEW automatically. Additional classes/assessments are required.
Oh FFS. It’s context, one size doesn’t fit all. When someone thinks they know about STCW, but obviously don’t, I point out their deficiencies and explain. When they apparently have never even heard of it, I refer it to generically to initiate a discussion.
And, if they don’t know about STCW, do you think they know what “OICEW” stands for?
ABET accredits bachelor and masters Engineering programs, and associate and bachelor Engineering Technology programs.
ABET explains the difference on their website and points out it’s two different accreditation boards, so im not sure if you could favorably argue the associates in Eng Tech meets the cfr…(but of course who knows what the evaluator will say!)
Hmm, well this is the CFR: “Graduation from the mechanical or electrical engineering course of a school of technology accredited by the ABET, together with 6 months of service in the engine department of steam, motor, or gas turbine-propelled vessels;”…so who knows what somebody could thread through the eye of that needle?!?
Did some ABET looking and to quote what you summarized:
Engineering Programs
Our Engineering Accreditation Commission (EAC) accredits engineering programs at the following levels: bachelor (four-year degree) and master (post-graduate). We’ve outlined the differences between engineering and engineering technology programs in the section below.
Engineering Technology Programs
Our Engineering Technology Accreditation Commission (ETAC) accredits engineering technology programs at the following levels: associate (two-year degree) and bachelor (four-year degree).
https://www.abet.org/accreditation/what-is-accreditation/what-programs-does-abet-accredit/
Engineering Vs. Engineering Technology
Engineering and engineering technology are separate but closely related professional areas that differ in:
- Curricular Focus – Engineering programs often focus on theory and conceptual design, while engineering technology programs usually focus on application and implementation. Engineering programs typically require additional, higher-level mathematics, including multiple semesters of calculus and calculus-based theoretical science courses, while engineering technology programs typically focus on algebra, trigonometry, applied calculus and other courses that are more practical than theoretical in nature.
- Career Paths – Graduates from engineering programs often pursue entry-level work involving conceptual design or research and development. Many continue on to graduate-level work in engineering. Graduates from ABET-accredited bachelor level engineering degree programs are eligible to become registered professional engineers (P.E.) in all U.S states and territories by a process of two examinations (the FE and PE exams) and documentation of engineering work experience. This registration is commonly known as the PE License. Graduates of four-year engineering technology programs are most likely to enter positions in sectors such as construction, manufacturing, product design, testing, or technical services and sales. Those who pursue further study often consider engineering, facilities management or business administration. Graduates from ABET-accredited bachelor level engineering technology degree programs are also eligible to become registered professional engineers by the same process in many (but not all) states. Graduates of two-year engineering technology programs likely assume engineering technician positions in maintenance, production or product development. The requirements for graduates of two-year programs to be eligible for professional licensure vary by state.In general, engineering programs offer more foundational analysis of problems while engineering technology programs stress current industrial design practices that allow students to start developing practical workplace skills.
For ABET accreditation, engineering and engineering technology programs are reviewed and accredited by two separate accreditation commissions, using two separate sets of accreditation criteria: the Engineering Accreditation Commission and the Engineering Technology Accreditation Commission.
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Check it out: https://amspub.abet.org/aps/
Program search, filter options, set degree level to associate, US for location, type engineer in the search box. Tons of results
Edit: Posted this before I read the above. It’s an interesting topic nonetheless. The CFR even says “school of technology”. Maybe a stretch but “engineering technology” has the same phrasing. Wonder if someone could make it work. Like shipengr said it’s all up the evaluator’s interpretation of the CFR
I did and there are no Electrical Engineering or Mechanical Engineering associates degrees accredited by ABET in the United States.
I see lots. Unless you mean there’s none because they’re “Engineering Technology” programs not “Engineering” programs
You can filter by major and by degree. When you select the majors as “mechanical engineering” and “electrical and electronics engineering” and the program as “associates degree” there are zero results.
The CFR says the major needs to be “mechanical engineering” not “mechanical engineering technology”.
What is the spirit of the law? Because I can make a strong argument that mechanical engineering technology meets the letter requirements. If the law was supposed to be so specific, the writers should’ve explicitly said “4-year ABET accredited bachelor’s degree in ME/EE”
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I don’t know but the letter of the law is very clear and “mechanical engineering technology” doesn’t meet it.
The law specifically says “ABET accredited degree in mechanical engineering” it does NOT say “ABET accredited degree in mechanical engineering or mechanical engineering technology”. If they wanted to include MET them they would have mentioned it, right?
No. If they only wanted to include specifically a 4-year ABET accredited bachelor’s degree in ME/EE, they should have explicitly wrote it. Keep sea lawyering with your expertise about the engineering profession, derp.
Will the poster get approved to test? I can’t answer that definitively, as I see good reason for both decisions (approve/deny).
The law specifically names two majors and neither of them are available as associates degrees. Develop an accredited two year mechanical engineering or electrical engineering major and the USCG should accept it since it meets the letter of the law. Until then, there are no associates degrees that meet the stated requirements.
It’s quite possible they would. We all know the evaluators fuck up all the time, some of the time in the mariner’s favor. Baffle them with bullshit.
One would think someone who has passed the FE exam would qualify for a 3rd license. Back in the day the FE was taken in the senior year. Now as then some engineering graduates from ABET schools either have not or are unable to pass the FE. I sure wouldn’t try if I had been out of school for very long. There is a way to qualify to take the FE without a BSME but it’s a tough route and would be very difficult for someone whose experience was on ships to qualify for.
I doubt the USCG has much experience with BSME grads from non-maritime schools getting a license so I’d hazard a guess that by the time they reached a decision about the 2 year ABET two year degree, if it’s available one, could have the 4 year degree.
https://fundamentalsofengineering.com/mod/page/view.php?id=26
And someone else can make a strong argument that ABET was not accrediting technology programs when that reg was written, and thus it was not intended to apply to them (i.e. the “spirit” of the law).
And they could also get the sea time needed for the hawsepipe route, and the cost of the STCW courses might be less than 2-4 years of college tuition…
2+ years and a small fortune in tuition is a lot to risk on that gamble…
Isn’t that decision up to Congress? They write the laws, correct?