[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;161942]You name any type of organization and you can find people that hate it. The church, the Boy Scouts, environmental groups, corporations, banks.
Lots of hating on unions. The right hate unions because they give workers more influence. the left hates unions because they prefer government solutions to workers organizing to look out for their own interests. The communist hated unions because they short-circuited the revolution. Non-union workers hate unions because they see it as someone getting something they don’t deserve, working schulbs getting good pay and benifits.[/QUOTE]
I think the left loves unions because they provide the left with a huge politic base and are the biggest influence in local elections and sometimes even national elections. I think “union haters” believe that the unions have a bad record of bankrupting the companies they work for, and in the end everybody loses their job and the company goes overseas. If you want to look at what unions can do, look at the auto industry. Heavily unionized American auto companies move overseas to remain competitive and are the classic example of good jobs moving overseas. Foreign auto companies move to non-union states in the US and bring less paying but still good jobs with them. This shows how badly hurt productivity and the companies they work for. US companies moving out of the US in the name of cutting costs, but foreign companies moving too the US in the name of cutting costs? Seems like it might have something to do with unions? I think all those laid off workers in Detroit would rather be making 17 dollars (instead of the 29 or whatever it is) an hour then un-employed.
At the end of the day real wages in the US are never going to go up because of globalization and the fact of the matter is their is somebody who can do the same job as an American for 1/10th the cost to the company, and until the 80’s outsourcing wasn’t as viable. I don’t think people are hating on unions, they just realize that they are a thing of the past and un-realistic in today’s globalized world. Maritime Unions are different because they are insulated by the Jones Act and the requirement to use US mariners.
[QUOTE=Rich Bogad;161972]Nobody will be able to answer that because the differences in insurance costs are vast. Rates are subject to control by states, so an employee working in one state could cost the company more than in other states.
Of course, there a wild fluctuations in what policies cover. That has a huge effect on costs.
Another factor is company size. The more employees a company has, the more negotiating ability they have with insurance companies.[/QUOTE]
You are correct. A friend retired his book and started sailing non-union tugs. He was surprised that to get the same level of coverage as the Core Plus he had to pay out $450 a month. That ate up the pay increase.
I’m curious now how my SIU insurance is with the Obamacare changes. I had my major dental work done before it went into effect fearing less coverage.
[QUOTE=injunear;161975] I’m curious now how my SIU insurance is with the Obamacare changes. I had my major dental work done before it went into effect fearing less coverage.[/QUOTE]
Obamacare does not require dental coverage. As to your coverage, the Dems carved out a bunch of TEMPORARY, exemptions for union plans. However, if your insurance is good, you eventually will be subject to a hefty tax on your so-called “Cadillac plan”.
[QUOTE=Jason Z;161973]I think the left loves unions because they provide the left with a huge politic base and are the biggest influence in local elections and sometimes even national elections. I think “union haters” believe that the unions have a bad record of bankrupting the companies they work for, and in the end everybody loses their job and the company goes overseas. If you want to look at what unions can do, look at the auto industry. Heavily unionized American auto companies move overseas to remain competitive and are the classic example of good jobs moving overseas. Foreign auto companies move to non-union states in the US and bring less paying but still good jobs with them. This shows how badly hurt productivity and the companies they work for. US companies moving out of the US in the name of cutting costs, but foreign companies moving too the US in the name of cutting costs? Seems like it might have something to do with unions? I think all those laid off workers in Detroit would rather be making 17 dollars (instead of the 29 or whatever it is) an hour then un-employed.
At the end of the day real wages in the US are never going to go up because of globalization and the fact of the matter is their is somebody who can do the same job as an American for 1/10th the cost to the company, and until the 80’s outsourcing wasn’t as viable. I don’t think people are hating on unions, they just realize that they are a thing of the past and un-realistic in today’s globalized world. Maritime Unions are different because they are insulated by the Jones Act and the requirement to use US mariners.[/QUOTE]
The Germans and many other European countries make automobiles and have a LOT of industry, most of which is unionized. Union members are on the board of directors of many companies. It is disingenuous to claim due to globalization US companies cannot recognize unions,pay a decent wage and provide decent benefits when the Europeans seem to be able to compete globally. I think greed has more to do with the issue than globalization. European companies can build things in the USA and make money but US companies can’t? Are they incompetent or just greedy? Volkswagen even encouraged unionization at their plant in Tennessee but the politicians and corporations got involved and got that stopped.When the US auto companies moved their manufacturing overseas to all that cheap labor and less regulation did the price of your new automobile go down? . When any USA company moves overseas to all that 10 cent on the dollar labor and no regulation do you EVER pay less for that same companies product? It is greed…pure and simple. Your country is being sold off piece by piece and you will be left to suck the last bit of sour milk out of the dead sow or work for a foreign owned company.
[QUOTE=Jason Z;161973]I think the left loves unions because they provide the left with a huge politic base and are the biggest influence in local elections and sometimes even national elections. I think “union haters” believe that the unions have a bad record of bankrupting the companies they work for, and in the end everybody loses their job and the company goes overseas. If you want to look at what unions can do, look at the auto industry. Heavily unionized American auto companies move overseas to remain competitive and are the classic example of good jobs moving overseas. Foreign auto companies move to non-union states in the US and bring less paying but still good jobs with them. This shows how badly hurt productivity and the companies they work for. US companies moving out of the US in the name of cutting costs, but foreign companies moving too the US in the name of cutting costs? Seems like it might have something to do with unions? I think all those laid off workers in Detroit would rather be making 17 dollars (instead of the 29 or whatever it is) an hour then un-employed.
At the end of the day real wages in the US are never going to go up because of globalization and the fact of the matter is their is somebody who can do the same job as an American for 1/10th the cost to the company, and until the 80’s outsourcing wasn’t as viable. I don’t think people are hating on unions, they just realize that they are a thing of the past and un-realistic in today’s globalized world. Maritime Unions are different because they are insulated by the Jones Act and the requirement to use US mariners.[/QUOTE]
Did you ever consider the heavily contributing factor of lost market share (and therefore less jobs for US workers) at the Big 3? They foolishly and arrogantly believed Americans would continue to solely buy cars that had MANY poorly made, unreliable pieces of shit among their Detroit model line-ups while companies like Toyota, Datsun, and Honda made cars [U][B]IN[/B][/U] Japan, shipped them here, and priced them fairly. And oh yeah, they were pretty damn good from the start.
The arrogance of the big 2 out of 3 on Capitol Hill in late 2008 getting bailout loans was no different than what put them on that intial road back in the lates 70s/80s.
As far as the Jones Act goes, don’t forget, MSP has nothing to do with that and there would be hundreds (maybe nearly a 1000) without jobs if the gov’t didn’t take an active role in that. In some ways the MSP, is a gov’t sponsored bail out of some US shipping companies, and not because of mismanagement like at the big 3.
I highly doubt Waterman/Central Gulf could survive with out it. And there would be no MLL, if there was no MSP. CSX / USMM would have died with the ACVs.
And with the way things are going at APL (cough,cough NOL), I don’t think MSP is even going to save it.
[QUOTE=tengineer1;161979]The Germans and many other European countries make automobiles and have a LOT of industry, most of which is unionized. Union members are on the board of directors of many companies. It is disingenuous to claim due to globalization US companies cannot recognize unions,pay a decent wage and provide decent benefits when the Europeans seem to be able to compete globally. I think greed has more to do with the issue than globalization. European companies can build things in the USA and make money but US companies can’t? Are they incompetent or just greedy? Volkswagen even encouraged unionization at their plant in Tennessee but the politicians and corporations got involved and got that stopped.When the US auto companies moved their manufacturing overseas to all that cheap labor and less regulation did the price of your new automobile go down? . When any USA company moves overseas to all that 10 cent on the dollar labor and no regulation do you EVER pay less for that same companies product? It is greed…pure and simple. Your country is being sold off piece by piece and you will be left to suck the last bit of sour milk out of the dead sow or work for a foreign owned company.[/QUOTE]
Yes you do pay a lot less when stuff is made overseas, ever been to Walmart? Even the poorest people in this country have things that would be considered luxuries as little as 15 years ago. Material goods are as cheap in relative terms as they have ever been. Companies don’t outsource everything they make all at once, they do it little by little so I don’t think you will see a drop in price overnight. You are correct it is greed, plain and simple. Greed (good, bad or indifferent) is a human behavior about as predictable as eating or sleeping. The same people who whine about corporate greed shop at Walmart so they can buy a bunch of stuff made in China for a fraction of the cost, drive foreign made cars instead of American and try to make as much money as possible without regard to anybody else. It is asinine to believe that a corporation is not going to do the same thing as any rational person would do. Yes sometimes it sucks, but i’m going to live my life under the assumption that greed is the number one driving force in business, and that just like my greed is the primary driving force for me being on a fishing boat for a month straight. So are unions good or bad? Who cares because the trend is they are dying and private labor unions will be a thing of the past very soon.
You do make a good point about German industry. In Germany corporations are not subject to a 40% tax rate like they are here. They also are much heavier subsidized by the government then US companies. Also in Europe Germany is the exception not the rule, as I believe very few companies still make anything in Europe and the unemployment rate in many countries of the EU is up too 25%. If I remember correctly the workers at that Volkswagen plant voted the proposal by the company to unionize down.
[QUOTE=Jason Z;161991]If I remember correctly the workers at that Volkswagen plant voted the proposal by the company to unionize down.[/QUOTE]
If I remember correctly, anti-union legislators and interests in the state carried out a very strong misinformation campaign claiming that Volkswagen would shut the plant down if it unionized. VW itself made no strong statements either way, because they didn’t want to be seen as interfering in the vote.
[QUOTE=Glaug-Eldare;161992]If I remember correctly, anti-union legislators and interests in the state carried out a very strong misinformation campaign claiming that Volkswagen would shut the plant down if it unionized. VW itself made no strong statements either way, because they didn’t want to be seen as interfering in the vote.[/QUOTE]
Yep. It was a well executed propaganda campaign that even Josef Goebbels would envy and the workers ate it up. Well congratulations, VW workers you’re like a barnyard full of chickens who voted for Col. Sanders. Aint freedumb great.
I agree with the Walmart bit, I fucking hate the place. That an all of its shit products. One place the rest of the world has got is is vehicles though. Hell even the toyatas built in the states are better than most of the American cars I’ve owned. Detroit went bankrupt because they built giant pieces of shit, and the unions made them expensive giant pieces of shit.
[QUOTE=Jason Z;161991]Yes you do pay a lot less when stuff is made overseas, ever been to Walmart? Even the poorest people in this country have things that would be considered luxuries as little as 15 years ago. Material goods are as cheap in relative terms as they have ever been. Companies don’t outsource everything they make all at once, they do it little by little so I don’t think you will see a drop in price overnight. You are correct it is greed, plain and simple. Greed (good, bad or indifferent) is a human behavior about as predictable as eating or sleeping. The same people who whine about corporate greed shop at Walmart so they can buy a bunch of stuff made in China for a fraction of the cost, drive foreign made cars instead of American and try to make as much money as possible without regard to anybody else. It is asinine to believe that a corporation is not going to do the same thing as any rational person would do. Yes sometimes it sucks, but i’m going to live my life under the assumption that greed is the number one driving force in business, and that just like my greed is the primary driving force for me being on a fishing boat for a month straight. So are unions good or bad? Who cares because the trend is they are dying and private labor unions will be a thing of the past very soon. .[/QUOTE]
What in the fuck are you talking about?
Walmart is subsidized indirectly by the taxpayers. They pay shit wages and their employees need government (Taxpayer) assistance.
You do make a good point about German industry. In Germany corporations are not subject to a 40% tax rate like they are here. They also are much heavier subsidized by the government then US companies. Also in Europe Germany is the exception not the rule, as I believe very few companies still make anything in Europe and the unemployment rate in many countries of the EU is up too 25%. .[/QUOTE]
The corporate propaganda and whining about high taxes is tiresome. Especially when the effective tax paid once they use all the loop holes they got made into law takes their taxes down to much less than 20%. In addition they get 100% tax credit for any foreign tax paid. The individual income taxpayer is subsidizing these companies. There are large US corporations that pay their CEOs more than the corporation pays in federal tax.Boeing, Ford Motor, Chevron, Citigroup, Verizon, J.P. Morgan and General Motors — were highly profitable, but collected $1.9 billion in refunds from the IRS, giving them an effective tax rate of negative 2.5%. Their CEOs averaged $17.3 million in pay. Did I mention stock options to executives is 100% deductible? By way the starting pay for an auto worker is about $19.00/hour or $154 a day in GoM speak which is less than many OS jobs. You say greed is a human behavior and I agree which is why we have regulations. I cannot rob a bank legally, unless I own one. Now why don’t these corporations pay their fair share by regulation? Simple…avoiding taxes is a strategy used by most large corporations today. There is over $2 trillion in U.S. corporate profits parked offshore by corporations such as Apple, GE, Microsoft, Citigroup and Medtronic. Corporations say they keep so much profit offshore because they have a responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits by any legally allowed means, including avoiding taxes. They will sit and wait until a tax holiday is set in place where they can repatriate their money at a much lower tax rate than your local Mom and Pop shop. Add to this tax free zones in various US States along with tax incentives, state grants and you have a country that is being legislated by corporate owned representatives. Corporate profits are at their highest level in at least 85 years yet employee compensation is at the lowest level in 65 years. They don’t pay taxes because they don’t have to, they have representation in Washington and you do not. Rather than pay their fair share they would rather cut benefits for the bottom 95% ,40 years ago there were unions to balance this out but unions are no more large enough balance out the fat cats and as Catherder said the chickens keep voting for Colonel Sanders to run the chicken coop. The sad thing is there is an entire generation now that thinks this crap is normal and things have always been this way.
Following the 712-626 vote against the union in February 2014, it was revealed that a $300 million incentive package offered to Volkswagen by Republican Gov. Bill Haslam’s administration had been made contingent on labor talks “being concluded to the satisfaction” of the state. Haslam at the time declined to specify which scenarios would have satisfied the state.
Why did the state interfere with a legal contract between two private parties?
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;162014]Why did the state interfere with a legal contract between two private parties?[/QUOTE]
In the 1970s VW opened a UAW plant in Pennsylvania to build Rabbits. The cars were among the biggest pieces of shit ever sold. It was so bad that VW had to pull the entire Rabbit brand from the US market, due to the awful reputation. They had to close the plant and import Golfs (basically German version of Rabbit) from Europe. As a result of that fiasco, many VW dealers went out of business because people would not buy the cars, costing the jobs of the people that worked for the dealers.
Around the 1980s GM introduced a new brand, Saturn. They opened a UAW plant in Tennessee. I’m guessing that TN threw in a whole lot of incentives to attract that plant. Saturn could not turn a profit. The costs of production meant that they could not afford to bring out new models. Saturn had to fold.
I’d guess that TN threw in a bunch of money to attract that VW plant. Maybe, the Saturn experience made TN real scared. Maybe they knew of the 1970s Rabbit fiasco. Maybe they knew of Izuzu’s experience of opening a UAW plant in the midwest in the 80s. They had to close and pull out of the US market. Maybe they knew of Mitsubishi’s experience with their UAW plant in Illinois, with quality problems, and constant “labor difficulties”.
The role of state government is to look out for the good of the entire state. They would have ample evidence that the UAW has cost jobs.
By the way, did you ever ask yourself why VW chose TN rather than someplace like Michigan, or Illinois or any of the northern union states?
On another note, you’ll see “workers’ council” in stories about this. That’s a German thing that is illegal in the US. It’s illegal at the behest of unions. It prevents a company form setting up it’s own company union.
[QUOTE=Rich Bogad;162023]In the 1970s VW opened a UAW plant in Pennsylvania to build Rabbits. The cars were among the biggest pieces of shit ever sold. It was so bad that VW had to pull the entire Rabbit brand from the US market, due to the awful reputation. They had to close the plant and import Golfs (basically German version of Rabbit) from Europe. As a result of that fiasco, many VW dealers went out of business because people would not buy the cars, costing the jobs of the people that worked for the dealers.
Around the 1980s GM introduced a new brand, Saturn. They opened a UAW plant in Tennessee. I’m guessing that TN threw in a whole lot of incentives to attract that plant. Saturn could not turn a profit. The costs of production meant that they could not afford to bring out new models. Saturn had to fold.
I’d guess that TN threw in a bunch of money to attract that VW plant. Maybe, the Saturn experience made TN real scared. Maybe they knew of the 1970s Rabbit fiasco. Maybe they knew of Izuzu’s experience of opening a UAW plant in the midwest in the 80s. They had to close and pull out of the US market. Maybe they knew of Mitsubishi’s experience with their UAW plant in Illinois, with quality problems, and constant “labor difficulties”.
[B]The role of state government is to look out for the good of the entire state[/B]. They would have ample evidence that the UAW has cost jobs.
By the way, did you ever ask yourself why VW chose TN rather than someplace like Michigan, or Illinois or any of the northern union states?
On another note, you’ll see “workers’ council” in stories about this. That’s a German thing that is illegal in the US. It’s illegal at the behest of unions. It prevents a company form setting up it’s own company union.[/QUOTE]
VW is shareholder owned and one of the largest auto manufactures in the world. UAW is a private organizaion. The two parties wish to enter into a contract with each other.
Even assuming that the (ex) governor of S. Carolina knows better then VW management and the workers what type of contacts the two parties should agree to, no one can reasonably argue that secretly using taxpayer funds to bribe companies is a free market situation.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;162037]VW is shareholder owned and one of the largest auto manufactures in the world. UAW is a private organizaion. The two parties wish to enter into a contract with each other.
Even assuming that the (ex) governor of S. Carolina knows better then VW management and the workers what type of contacts the two parties should agree to, no one can reasonably argue that using taxpayer funds to bribe companies is a free market situation.[/QUOTE]
Obviously, the VW employees didn’t want to. They’d have voted for it in the first place. They voted against. Politicians and others voiced their opinion, as is their right. They could not force anyone to vote against the union. The employees did. You might also find the the UAW reached across the ocean to their pals in Germany, to get some pressure put on VW’s HQ.
Again, if VW is so pro union, why didn’t they open in the upper midwest, with loads of experienced auto workers to hire?
I agree on not giving incentives for companies to locate, or stay, someplace. It’s unfair to all the companies that have been in the state/locality and paying taxes. It especially unfair to any competitors who have operations in the state. It’s something that could only be solved at the federal level. It won’t be because the vast majority of states use it.
[QUOTE=Rich Bogad;162039]Obviously, the VW employees didn’t want to. They’d have voted for it in the first place. They voted against. Politicians and others voiced their opinion, as is their right. They could not force anyone to vote against the union. The employees did. You might also find the the UAW reached across the ocean to their pals in Germany, to get some pressure put on VW’s HQ.
Again, if VW is so pro union, why didn’t they open in the upper midwest, with loads of experienced auto workers to hire?
I agree on not giving incentives for companies to locate, or stay, someplace. It’s unfair to all the companies that have been in the state/locality and paying taxes. It especially unfair to any competitors who have operations in the state. It’s something that could only be solved at the federal level. It won’t be because the vast majority of states use it.[/QUOTE]
That VW is pro-union is not even remotely debatable. Every VW plant in the world is union except the one in Chattanooga. VW has made it very clear that they want that plant to be unionized as well.
Politicians did far more then just voice their opinions. The governor told VW management, in secret, that he would withhold tax credits if the vote didn’t go his way.
A majority of the hourly workers in the plant (55%) have joined the UAW.
[QUOTE=Rich Bogad;162039]Obviously, the VW employees didn’t want to. They’d have voted for it in the first place. They voted against. Politicians and others voiced their opinion, as is their right.[/QUOTE]
Do you have any idea what was going on in Tennessee? This wasn’t legislators and officials offering opinions, saying “we don’t think you should unionize.” This was legislators and officials flat out lying and saying “Volkswagen has told us that all of you will lose your jobs unless you vote against the union.” They ran a campaign to make people believe that VW was on the verge of firing every single one of them if they organized, and many of them did believe it.
Being from The South (Tennessee) the equation is pretty much as follows…Pro-Union=Pro-Democratic Party…Democratic Party=Lucifer…
Any ideal or system that is viewed as backed by the Democratic Party is viewed as pure evil. And the irony is that the company provided benefits (employer provided healthcare, retirement contributions, workers comp,safe workplace) that are so often brought up as reasons why unions are now useless were only brought about through organized labor years ago, not because of the kindness of companies. Both Union and non Union operations have their shortcomings, but people literally were cracked over their heads by company paid thugs with bats for demanding the benefits we all now enjoy both Union and non Union. And if people truly despise unions then stop accepting employer based benefits that organized labor fought for decades ago.
[QUOTE=bunker305;162053]Being from The South (Tennessee) the equation is pretty much as follows…Pro-Union=Pro-Democratic Party…Democratic Party=Lucifer…
Any ideal or system that is viewed as backed by the Democratic Party is viewed as pure evil. And the irony is that the company provided benefits (employer provided healthcare, retirement contributions, workers comp,safe workplace) that are so often brought up as reasons why unions are now useless were only brought about through organized labor years ago, not because of the kindness of companies. Both Union and non Union operations have their shortcomings, but people literally were cracked over their heads by company paid thugs with bats for demanding the benefits we all now enjoy both Union and non Union. And if people truly despise unions then stop accepting employer based benefits that organized labor fought for decades ago.[/QUOTE]
Precisely and now these goobers are sitting back watching as their representatives, overwhelmingly Republican, team up with Obama and the paid for Democrats to pass this Trans Pacific Trade agreement that will most assuredly ship MORE jobs over seas. It will be NAFTA on steroids with foreign corporations able to sue the US government and a massive shift of jobs out of the USA. It is a secret agreement that we the people are not allowed to read before Obama gets “fast track” authority. Not a peep out of the clueless electorate as they are sold further down the river by their leaders.
