Wow drillships and rigs must do things totally opposite. ETO’s don’t operate any of the equipment where I come from. He’s an electrician and will be called in to help diagnose an electronic issue. The engines, thrusters or any other machinery are only operated under the supervision of an engineer. If he were diagnosing any electrical issues he could not test run the engine without one of us there. It is a fully automated plant that has a trained and licensed engineer monitoring it 24/7. The ET dos have full understanding of how the system works. If an engine or some other auxiliary equipment failed what good does it do to have an ET working on a pump? We have taken it upon ourselves to cross train our ETO so he can assist us with every operation onboard when needed. I can assure you the ET is not the person getting the lights on in an emergency on one of our vessels. Unless we are adrift and having to go through every fuse or component in the switchboards. In that case he will be assisting all of us get the lights on.
I’ m not saying the et or eto’s operate the equipment but for most faults on modern plant they are the guys fixing it.
Getting back to the original post, I cant see the issue of dpo starting gen sets as waiting for load dependent start could well be too late in some cases.
What is the issue with starting an automated gen set versus a thruster for a dpo?
You still need all the technical people on board.
Non manned engine rooms is reality?
What are you going to do if you have 4 or more engine rooms?
I can see its a big culture change to psv boats as they become DE. Now the owners look at splitting the engine room to gain the dp2 enhanced class and the power automation screen turns up on the bridge.
I think there was a similar reality check when on dp2 vessels engineers did what they wanted then class required fmea’s came out that specified how to configure the engine room to ensure your are actually in dp2 mode.
Onward and upward.
Now we add LPG to the psv and or fuel cells, there’s plenty coming for engineers.
Abb just installed a capacitor bank on a new build about 3.5mw to help make up for the instant power requirement that a diesel cant deliver.
All tools for the dpo?
The issue is there should be an engineer on watch. Automated unmanned engine rooms are fine in open waters or tied to the dock. When drilling and all the environmental implications involved why would you not have someone physically monitoring the plant? Someone other than electrician to watch an assortment of machinery? If the plant is diesel electric all of his thrusters should be energized already. He shouldn’t have to start a thruster. If it’s controlled via vfd it’s just sitting there not using power until commanded. If the DPO anticipates more power needed and wants more generators online he should call the ecr and tell the engineer to make it happen. What happens if the DPO initiates this from the VCS and nothing happens? Does he leave the bridge to go to the engine room to rectify the situation? What if the electrician says I dunno it’s got 24 volts to the ECM but it won’t start? An engineer is called to fix the problem.
If this is normal operations on a drillship or DP rig I may consider switching to non oilfield work. Having the DPO and electricians watching all the power generation equipment is just fucking stupid and another DWH is waiting to happen. Next time they will shut drilling down for good.
When you say doing ecr watch do you mean looking at a panel or looking at an engine?
So all 3 engineers are in one of our 4 engines rooms and the dpo needs another engine, 10 minutes later, gods gift to pressing a button who was called to start one turns up…
Drift off and emergency disconnect
Management review the incident and the dpo’s get a panel to start engines.
Men staring at goats , comes to mind.
[QUOTE=powerabout;156063]When you say doing ecr watch do you mean looking at a panel or looking at an engine?
So all 3 engineers are in one of our 4 engines rooms and the dpo needs another engine, 10 minutes later, gods gift to pressing a button who was called to start one turns up…
Drift off and emergency disconnect
Management review the incident and the dpo’s get a panel to start engines.
Men staring at goats , comes to mind.[/QUOTE]
If ANYONE needs to push a button to start an engine you don’t have an automated VMS. If anyone feels the need to start an engine rather than let VMS do its job you have poor VMS parameters OR simply don’t have faith in the automation.
Anybody here a dpo?
I see a huge cloudburst rolling in knowing they blow x hard in this area and we are sitting in no wind with the minimum power online for the current conditions.( to keep the engineers happy)
The engineer waits till its too late but the dpo would start extra engines
I now know why dpo’s have the start button close by,
Engineers think automation can predict the future!
[QUOTE=powerabout;156127]Anybody here a dpo?
I see a huge cloudburst rolling in knowing they blow x hard in this area and we are sitting in no wind with the minimum power online for the current conditions.( to keep the engineers happy)
The engineer waits till its too late but the dpo would start extra engines
I now know why dpo’s have the start button close by,
Engineers think automation can predict the future![/QUOTE]
Do you KNOW the VMS system will not respond fast enough? If it will not have you made provisions to remedy the situation? Was the system not designed to handle cloudbursts? They seem to be a common occurrence at sea.
The entire point is this. Either it is a fully automated system only requiring human intervention in the event of an alarm/malfunction during all conditions specified when designed or it is not. If it is not you need a qualified engineer manning the ER console.
when human eyes tell you that you need or will need more power, only the laziest and stoopidest person on the planet will just sit and wait for the VMS to bring up generators. If we’re going to rely solely on the automation to do our jobs, why the HELL are we even there? I have no problem with a mate starting generators but I still want an ERO down there in case something doesn’t go the way it is supposed to.
I do believe the window tint on the ECRs windows are to dark now a days and they can’t see outside let alone view the radar no fault to them, DPO should call prior to a squall. So I find it hard to believe that the VMS is gonna kick that 4th or 5th etc engine online in time to prevent being pushed off with 3knts of current out the south up my ass and wind about to shift around to North, prior to it being on my bow, crushing me on my port beam with 40-50knts… With a 68% power usage load start, that extra engine should be blowing me a kiss right around the time we reach 15-20ft off location. …
And at 20’ there is a permissive fault and no start so the next one tries now you need the power to resist the wind plus stop the momentum that has been building up all along, all because the sacred start button has to below the waterline…
[QUOTE=c.captain;156134]when human eyes tell you that you need or will need more power, only the laziest and stoopidest person on the planet will just sit and wait for the VMS to bring up generators. If we’re going to rely solely on the automation to do our jobs, why the HELL are we even there? I have no problem with a mate starting generators but I still want an ERO down there in case something doesn’t go the way it is supposed to.[/QUOTE]
Agree, an engineer should be on the console. Automation is being used to cut manning already but only minimal automation is being supplied obviously since DPOs do not have enough faith in the system to let it work or it simply does not work in normal operating situations. Rain squalls and cloudbursts are normal operating conditions on oceans and bays where people drill for oil, agree? Therefore there should be a qualified engineer immediately available at the control console not performing maintenance a radio call away, however far “away” may be. I could care less who gets to push the button, the problem is the button needs to be pushed and this is really minor in the sum total but an indicator of a larger problem. My point is companies are not paying to install practically operational automation systems yet they use the classification to reduce manning. Flag state lets them get by with it because they haven’t a clue and classification societies are, well paid by the companies .Everyone here thus far states that their automation system cannot be trusted to handle a squall or cloudburst. A storm/cloudburst is just the tip of the iceberg in automation shortcomings and actually one of the smaller ones. Once you dig deeper you see worse things that will eventually result in large unplanned down time or catastrophic failure due to using automation on the cheap to replace qualified people, it is compounded when you do not increase the qualified electronic techs to adequately maintain these increasingly automated vessels.
[QUOTE=FourchonShuffle;156138] So I find it hard to believe that the VMS is gonna kick that 4th or 5th etc engine online in time to prevent being pushed off with 3knts of current out the south up my ass and wind about to shift around to North, prior to it being on my bow, crushing me on my port beam with 40-50knts… With a 68% power usage load start, that extra engine should be blowing me a kiss right around the time we reach 15-20ft off location. …[/QUOTE]
So, the system is not designed correctly? You have a semi automation system? You said you don’t believe it will kick that 4th or 5th engine on in time so I take you don’t know. When not doing critical work during a squall let the system work, see what happens. If it is not up to snuff have it corrected. In your design criteria does it state that you must override the automation in certain weather? Just curious.
Theres a difference between having a loaded gun being thrown into a sword fight and having to load your 6 shooter after you get sucker punched… Case in point putting another online before you get hit.
If you’ve worked long enough you’ve seen automation work and you’ve also seen it fail, no DP trial, audit, FMEA, pm or inspection can guarantee when that moment comes it’s gonna work like it should.
There’s no substitute for and engineer in the ECR/ER… Unless your DPO’s are just as competent with the mechanics of that vessel as the engineers then the system of unmanned ECR is flawed
overriding design criteria…? Did you mean to say being prudent?
[QUOTE=FourchonShuffle;156154]overriding design criteria…? Did you mean to say being prudent?[/QUOTE]
Well then it would not also be prudent to take override the DP desk in the event of a cloud burst or squall. After all it may not work as designed. There should be equal faith in both automation systems or the systems need correcting. Look at it this way. Most people agree we need qualified DP operators capable of taking over the DP system on the job on the bridge. What I hear time and again is they don’t have faith in the engineering VMS to perform as designed. So…this system people don’t believe in is OK do be unmanned? If they don’t believe the system can start an engine what else is it incapable of doing?With that logic why not let the DPOs wander about the ship doing deck maintenance, heck you could cut manning even further. You could have a AB lookout and administrative assistant do the bridge duties. As long as the DPO has a radio all is well.
When you had one engine room, thats the place to put the ecr and do the watch, now that you have multiple engine rooms to add redundancy there is no way the idea was to employ more people so there is one in each engine room.
Pretty obvious why the vms panel went to the bridge along with the ballast control.
Now the engineers concentrate on break fix and pm’s
This is not new, there are tons of vessels running like this and more every day especially now that this concept is moving to psv’s as well.
I dont see it as removing engineers, they just cant all hide in the ecr anymore as someone else has oversight on the reponse to faults and alarms.
While this is a different animal there are some parallels that can be drawn. Back when they decided to Automate the Engine Rooms on 333 vessels they came up with a set of rules to meet what was “Needed”. Some companies did only what was required to run with a single Engineer but others went with a much more complicated system. I was very involved in the design, install and maintenance of these systems, so I have seen the good, bad and ugly.
In order to run “Automated” The Mains and Generators (Start and Stop) had to be controllable (Manually) from the Wheel House. On most boats this this meant having to go Black when switching Generators. This lead into other problems as some minor things such as Steering Gear might need to be manually reset.
Later there were systems that would start and put the Standby Generator online in a matter of seconds but still had a black out point.
My point is that Every Company (ok, most companies) are going to build to the Min Standards required to meet class.
An old statement comes to mind. Be careful when saying that something is Idiot Proof as you never know when a new and better Idiot will come along.
About the only thing that I can see is to come out with a NEW rating of Engineer DPO that would work along side of the Mate DPO. This way you could have the best of both worlds. This will never happen as the Engine Department and the Deck Compartment have been fighting over which is more important to the safe running of ANY Vessel!
The last thing I need is a dpo to be overseeing what my engines are doing, and calling me on a radio if they think there is a problem. If you didn’t like engineers hiding in the control room before, you surely won’t like engineers “forgetting” their radios because they don’t want the dpo calling them about their “check engine light”. The only people that should be overseeing engines and their control systems are qualified and trained engineers. That’s what they went to school for, after all.
Your jumping to conclusions…
The only thing the person on the panel will do is read out what it says, pure and simple.
Boss is not keen on paying someone that spent 4 years in college to sit and read alarms just to pass the message on.
Then you go and read them on the ecr panel, how hard is that?
The fights over, its a done deal, get used to it.
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You do know its common for scandanavian offiers to be dual ticketed…
And k chief comes from…
No surprise all the technical vessels in the gulf are foreign