Does the Master rules over the Chief Engineer?

I am about to graduate from my field of study and soon to be an Engine Cadet.
So, I was wondering, does the Master rules over the Chief Engineer activities? Or, generally speaking, over him? If he does, in which ways?

Thank you for your answers.

Depends on the size and type of vessel. On large, deep sea vessels (and perhaps most vessels of any kind) while the captain has ultimate authority over the actions of the chief engineer, in a strictly legal sense, the chief engineer actually operates autonomously, only answering to the captain for the broadest of orders. For example, the captain tells the chief when he wants the main engines started and stopped. But the captain wouldn’t tell the chief engineer how to do start or stop them, or who to use to start them, or how to perform maintenance in between. On the largest of vessels the chief engineer is nearly co-equal to the captain in authority. The Chief runs the engine room and engineering plant without orders or counsel from the captain, except to start and stop a certain piece of equipment. On the largest of vessels the chief engineer manages a staff of people very nearly equal in size to that of the deck department, without interference from the captain.
But as the size of vessel decreases this becomes less and less the case. At the opposite end of the spectrum, on smaller tug boats for example, there may very well be no “Chief”. No licensed engineer at all. A crew member may be designated as “engineer”, but the captain may make all the decisions about operating the engine room, when maintenance occurs, etc.
In the U.S., the status of the chief engineer on most vessels falls in the middle of these two extremes. Certainly, if there is a licensed chief engineer aboard, most captains do not interfere in the running of the engine room. To most captains the engine room is an enigma over which they have little or no expertise. They are only to happy to let the
"chief" alone.

[QUOTE=freighterman;184711]Depends on the size and type of vessel…

To most captains the engine room is an enigma over which they have little or no expertise. They are only to happy to let the
"chief" alone.[/QUOTE]
The best situation is where the Captain (who does have overall authority of the vessel) has a Chief who he is confident in, and can allow the operation of the Engine Room to the Chief. I have been on vessels where the Chief has gotten a Captain fired, as well as the opposite. But when you find a good Chief… all is well with the world.

I believe your question is about the legal aspects. The Master is in over all control of the vessel. Both Legally and Operationally.

Someone famous said: “The Buck Stops here.” That is at the Captains door. Unless you’re the Deckhand/Tankerman. Then you think you are in charge.

Welcome to the gCaptain Forum ItalianSailor. Happy to have you. Congrats on your upcoming graduation. :slight_smile: We look forward to hearing from you as an Engine Cadet in the future.

The Master has overriding authority on everything while he’s the Master of the ship.

In the eyes of the law the Captain is omnipotent but that also makes him responsible for any consequences. In real life if they can’t agree on something then the office will get involved and take sides and whoever refuses to cooperate will loose their job once the ship reaches port.

Nowadays only time the shore is unlikely to get involved is during an emergency. In this scenario disagreement usually ends with both the master and chief standing side-by-side in court or laying side-by-side in a watery grave.

If stuff in the engine room doesn’t get done the Master gets blamed. If the Chief pumps oil over the side the Master gets blamed. It’s the Master’s ship, both deck and engine room. The Chief Engineer runs the engine room usually without much interference and the Chief Mate runs the deck, usually without much interference. The Master is the boss of both of them.

At some companies with larger ships the CHENG is in charge of the ship’s budget. This is for funding maintenance, repairs and yard work. On some ships this gives the CHENG a good amount of power over the other departments, including the Master.

It always seems that the larger the ship the more power the CHENG has.

The master of course is the ultimate authority but on ships the chief and captain are very nearly equal. Chief takes care of things below deck and usually handles all purchasing for the ship. No captain I know of has ever been prosecuted for pumping oil over the side it is usually the CE. But the answer to the question is, the master is the ultimate authority but on ships is quite content to let the chief take care of engineering and budget matters.

[QUOTE=ItalianSailor;184661]I am about to graduate from my field of study and soon to be an Engine Cadet.
So, I was wondering, does the Master rules over the Chief Engineer activities? Or, generally speaking, over him? If he does, in which ways?

Thank you for your answers.[/QUOTE]

So as to not waste a second of your upcoming career, especially if you’re “on a roll” having graduated from your field of study which, with your permission, I’ll guess wasn’t diplomacy, lets first spend a second on the importance of being a good shipmate. Your use of the term “rules over” is a poor choice of words for an innocent landlubber to use in this forum of highly skilled seamen. Ships run best when the incredible knowledge base and experience on board are finely tuned for maximum performance with good management. There’s no “ruling”. If it becomes necessary for you to know how very senior officers on your first ship interact before you master the knowledge of which end of the ship the propeller is on, you’ve probably murdered someone and the fact of “who rules” will take on real importance.

Do everything you can to get smart technically as fast as you can. When you join the ship find the C/Mate, tell him who you are, ask him for guidance on when the Master wishes you to report for signing on. Next find your cabin, change into coveralls, sharpen your pencil for notes, and see the C/Engineer for direction. You will be overwhelmed with what you don’t know, at times discouraged you’ll never be able to run a 3/Eng’r watch, question your choice of your post “field of study” careers, get homesick, but of all the things you will have become painfully aware of not knowing, I can let you relax on the question of whether you know if the Master “rules” the C/Engineer. You’ll learn quickly to acknowledge you’ve only seen the Master at fire and boat drills since you got underway and you don’t have coffee with the C/Engineer, so you’re the last guy on the ship to wonder out loud who’s running who.

Learn how to be a shadow man. Be as invisible as possible while you’re learning your trade. Soon you’ll know that you should reserve your opinion of who’s good and who’s not until you’ve been his shipmate for 6 months. In reflection, after your 1st underway period, you’ll realize the folks you thought were neat at first, by the end of the voyage, will have lost their luster and the folks you were luke warm to initially, became better friends as time progressed. A skill you will acquire by osmosis will be how to interact with others in a small space over a long period of time. Even though you did not cover it in school you’ll figure out things like, on your 1st night in port, go ahead and give the guy running into the head the right of way. You’ll learn that no matter what the guys “swear” they’ve seen or overheard, if the Capt. let’s you dance with his wife don’t try to slip her the tounge. You’ll learn, with no one teaching you, not to ask the 1/Eng’r. why you have to always make the coffee when you “rule” over the wiper.

As your career progresses, your responsibilities will increase as will the knowledge you’ll need to be successful in your new position. You will have many bosses on your way up. Each man will have you making mental notes on what leadership that man possessed to get things done efficiently; what he did to muster unsolicited respect and how necessary it is for the C/Eng’r. to manage the ship’s hotel services, the propulsion of the ship, maintaining cargo quality (reefer,electric) insuring personnel accountability and financial responsibility so that, as a department head, along with the other departments not only makes himself irreplaceable but key to the proper management of the ship that the owners demand, and are insured compliance by, the Master’s direction, suggestions and when necessary, advice. Neither the Master or the C/Eng’r should keep score. They have been chosen, not only for their skills and knowledge but for their ability to cooperate while doing what’s necessary to deliver cargo. It’s never a question of who “rules”. I will let you in on a conclusion it took me many years at which to arrive. Companies don’t really care if you run a 4.0 or a 3.0 ship. You’re there so they don’t get phone calls. You’re there so that owning that ship and delivering cargo, for them, is as easy as possible. You can see now that ruling, controlling and intimidation are mindsets that guarantee unsuccessful operations, overly cumbersome meeting of deadlines and the final nail in career ending, too much financial investment to complete taskings. Department heads are completely aware of the inter departmental cooperation they, by their personal investment insure. The C/Eng’r like the Master have singular, non transferable, unique responsibility to each other and the ship. Occasionally, the Master breaks ties, conveys changes to previous directives issued by the owner and by way of the Master’s respect for the C/Eng’rs exposure, might express a solution to an awkward situation the C/Eng’r may have chosen not to follow or thought of at all. Conflict resolution is not “ruling”.

As a cadet, you should only hope the Master signs your discharge with the right sea days, pays you without error and gets you to the airport on time. If the C/Eng’r gives you a good recommendation to go back to school with, as far as you are concerned they both rule.

You can ask your question in any waterfront bar, anywhere. You’ll be amazed at how much first hand knowledge and experience even the butter cutters have and are willing to share with you on the sensitivities of marine leadership that they would gladly share with the ship owners the very next time they have overlapping tee times in Dubai.

Choose your career path, whether deck or engine, more carefully than choosing a wife. A great job and if you’re really lucky, a great ship is worth 3 wives. As a cadet, don’t ask provocative questions. I’d hate to see you get off on the wrong foot on your first ship because you were over thinking subjects that, as Winston Churchill commented best on, stating “There are some questions gentlemen don’t ask each other”

Not where I work. If I pump oil over the side, it’s my ass. If thing aren’t getting done with ER maintenance or anything, the office is down my throat not the captain

[QUOTE=Charlie Noble;184737]So as to not waste a second of your upcoming career, especially if you’re “on a roll” having graduated from your field of study which, with your permission, I’ll guess wasn’t diplomacy, lets first spend a second on the importance of being a good shipmate. Your use of the term “rules over” is a poor choice of words for an innocent landlubber to use in this forum of highly skilled seamen.[/QUOTE]

I’d say you wasted a lot of time dissecting his poor choice of words when he’s obviously not a native English speaker and doesn’t have a very good grasp on the language.

[QUOTE=brjones;184754]Not where I work. If I pump oil over the side, it’s my ass.[/QUOTE]

I’m not talking about the company, I’m talking about fines, hey’ll fine both the Chief and the Master. The case I heard was the Chief got a $30,000 fine and the Master a $50,000 fine because “the Chief is in charge of the oil but he’s in charge of the Chief”.

Everyone has a boss. Most people have several different bosses. Chief Engineers usually have several bosses and the Master of the vessel is always on the list. The Master of the vessel has several bosses as well & the Chief Engineer is never on the list as being the boss of the Master. Good Masters know they desperately need good chiefs & should respect the CE position but should never answer to the CE. The words “rule over” is grossly misused in this question. We all know we will have bosses when we go to work. A person won’t make it to the position of Chief Engineer without completely understanding the chain of command & appreciating why we have it. People who think they will be able to “rule over” their crew usually don’t make it to the position of Master & don’t hold it long if they somehow manage to get the title. People who are inclined to think a Master or Chief Engineer rules over them usually don’t have the mentality to work in a structured work environment like we have in the maritime industry.

[QUOTE=Sand_Pebble;184816] People who think they will be able to “rule over” their crew usually don’t make it to the position of Master & don’t hold it long if they somehow manage to get the title. People who are inclined to think a Master or Chief Engineer rules over them usually don’t have the mentality to work in a structured work environment like we have in the maritime industry.[/QUOTE]

Read post #12 and stop being such an ass.

Every Chief I’ve worked with has made it pretty clear that they understand the buck stops at the Captain. I in turn have made it clear that the engine room is their stomping ground and I only want to be kept informed of what’s happening down there. At no time would I ever stick my beak in and tell and engineer how to run the plant. I’ve seen it happen in my years working up through the ranks and it never ends well.

As far as my culpability as Master of the vessel, yes I am going to hang if there is a major casualty. It’s my signature at the bottom of the Oil Record Book and if there is any malfeasance with regards to the oil, I am going to be held responsible. That’s why we only seek the best for the position of Chief Engineer. And that’s why they pay him and I the medium bucks.

This pretty much sums it up. We all know the ranks and who runs what out at sea.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;184806]I’m not talking about the company, I’m talking about fines, hey’ll fine both the Chief and the Master. The case I heard was the Chief got a $30,000 fine and the Master a $50,000 fine because “the Chief is in charge of the oil but he’s in charge of the Chief”.[/QUOTE]

Several years ago I was at a symposium on pollution at sea. The EPA and USCG were putting this show on and they said the two of them had never prosecuted a master but had prosecuted plenty of CE which I found to be odd [but know it’s true] since the master signs the ORB. Perhaps a master has been prosecuted for pumping oil over but I don’t personally know of a case. When Chouest pumped oil over the side in Antarctica did they go after the CE or the captain? When Noble pumped over in Alaska was the master prosecuted? [actually I think no individual was in that case] Looking at the USA EPA most wanted list one normally doesn’t find the name of masters but there are CE[s] listed on a regular basis.

If I wanted to be a Master I would’ve been. He can have the few extra dollars and all the headache that goes with the title, God bless them all.

At least on UTV they go after the captain. Being the only licensed personnel.