Does the Master rules over the Chief Engineer?

Professional Mariner Forum
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[QUOTE=tengineer1;184832]Several years ago I was at a symposium on pollution at sea. The EPA and USCG were putting this show on and they said the two of them had never prosecuted a master but had prosecuted plenty of CE which I found to be odd [but know it’s true] since the master signs the ORB. Perhaps a master has been prosecuted for pumping oil over but I don’t personally know of a case. When Chouest pumped oil over the side in Antarctica did they go after the CE or the captain? When Noble pumped over in Alaska was the master prosecuted? [actually I think no individual was in that case] Looking at the USA EPA most wanted list one normally doesn’t find the name of masters but there are CE[s] listed on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]

I know of one, and his initials are Joseph Hazelwood.

He was convicted of the misdemeanor charge of negligent discharge of oil (he was found not guilty of the other charges). I believe this was at the state level.

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[QUOTE=catherder;184838]I know of one, and his initials are Joseph Hazelwood.

He was convicted of the misdemeanor charge of negligent discharge of oil (he was found not guilty of the other charges). I believe this was at the state level.[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely correct. Prosecuting a master at the federal level for oil discharge is practically unheard of.

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[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;184804]I’d say you wasted a lot of time dissecting his poor choice of words when he’s obviously not a native English speaker and doesn’t have a very good grasp on the language.[/QUOTE]

You may be right, I’m wrong quite a bit. I read ItalianSailor’s post and then read the responses, not because I needed to know the answer, but to see who was going to be brave enough to take on the subject, not in a bar, but amongst some fellow posters who, charitably, can be considered “a tough crowd”. My first assumption was the same as yours. I thought, “Wow, this kid accidentally asked a question that everyone in the business has a button for and he pushed it”. With child like innocence, aided by a poor command of English, he’s stirred up a topic, that all have considered but knew enough not to bring up.

Surprised he got any traction,I got wondering about the odds of ItalianSailor, who depicts himself a novice, unblemished by exposure to seamen, who have strong opinions, could accidentally hit a nerve, that only a seaman with a few tire marks across his toes would have. I started thinking that those odds don’t exist in nature but I should reserve forming an opinion just yet.

Thinking that ItalianSailor was a strangely common, bland handle for a person that wanted us to know he was a cadet, an engine cadet, proud of an academic credential completed and to be awarded presently, wasn’t a sustainable argument, I put it in the back where I could find it in the “coincidences” file.

The native ease of constructing a sentence starting with “I was wondering comma does the Master” is in conflict with the credit given him for being clumsy with “rules”. Again, the very experienced, almost colloquial “Or comma generally speaking comma over him interrogative” was constructed with knowledge of tempo and phrasing. It doesn’t jibe with “rules” being a kid having trouble fleshing out a sentence, awkwardly. “If he does comma in which ways interrogative”. I just can’t buy that phrase, too smooth. The familiarity with English to start a sentence with “Generally speaking” led me to conclude, right or wrong, that an American or an Englishman put that question together. The phrase “Does the Master rules” is a set up, bait, a snare, to see what mischief could come of it.

Just in case some innocent kid was put up to the question by someone he trusted, who he shouldn’t, I gave him some information to think about. I remember the Green OS’s, who started trouble, innocently, gaining the wrath, that the 2 old trouble makers put him up to, so they could act like butter wouldn’t melt in their mouths around the Mate. The guys that sit in the back, getting the kids, not bright enough yet, to be on to them, set themselves on fire with the 1/Eng’r. asking stuff the “pot stirrers” didn’t have the balls to. I can picture a MSC 3/Eng’r on 00-0400, cold iron, with 200 days of discharges coming, who drove home every night, painfully bored, trying to kill a couple of hours. Everyone on MSC ships has a computer and access to the internet is ever present. He’s got to be reading this “paper”. Anyone with a little larceny in their soul could be behind getting a couple of dozen responses.

I think the question is too inflammatory, to have been innocently asked. He meant to use “rule”. He may not have been in on it, none the less, I think the use of the word “rule” was intentional, to get things going. I put a value on it.

Thank you for wading through my original response.

1 Like
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[QUOTE=Charlie Noble;184850]…I just can’t buy that phrase, too smooth. The familiarity with English to start a sentence with “Generally speaking” led me to conclude, right or wrong, that an American or an Englishman put that question together. The phrase “Does the Master rules” is a set up, bait, a snare, to see what mischief could come of it…[/QUOTE]

Nice to know Jack Reacher is a fan of Gcaptain…

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[QUOTE=“Charlie Noble”][/QUOTE] I speak one language fluently but have formal training in two others. What I try to read from his/her question is the intent of the question.

My formal secondary language training showed me how difficult it is to frame an idea in another language due to the risk that a single entrant word or phrase could undue everything I labored to intend. I can’t know how many times I’ve insulted or offended someone without intent just because I used a technically correct word, phrase or analogy that I thought proper but wasn’t interpreted by a native speaker in the common way.

Here we have someone asking a reasonable question with a somewhat odd turn of phrase. It is incumbent on us, a multinational group of mariners, to look past how he asked and focus on what he asked.

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[QUOTE=Fraqrat;184833]If I wanted to be a Master I would’ve been. He can have the few extra dollars and all the headache that goes with the title, God bless them all.[/QUOTE]

Being a Master nowadays comes with a “Long row to hoe”

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[QUOTE=cappy208;184712]I have been on vessels where the Chief has gotten a Captain fired, as well as the opposite. [/QUOTE]

you generally get yourself fired by your actions or inactions. It’s rarely of anyone else’s doing.

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Yeah, I tend too agree with anchorman, your reputation or past actions are what get you disciplined. I have been sailing for decades, mostly on the same boat and with the same master. We have developed a mutual trust/respect with one another. He leaves me alone in the engineering spaces, witch includes the personnel, and I say nothing to the crew, unless it poses a hazard to the crew or vessel. The master and I do and will always converse, I will never leave the master in the dark as to what is happening in my/his/hers/ our/spaces. It’s all about communication, respect, be mutual trust. Also, for the past years, I’ve been sailing international, with various nationalities as engine room crew, it is difficult as I have been using google translate, it gets you in the ballpark but it’s also not perfect, I think the OP used google translate to post, too me, it looks like it.

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[QUOTE=brjones;184754]Not where I work. If I pump oil over the side, it’s my ass. If thing aren’t getting done with ER maintenance or anything, the office is down my throat not the captain[/QUOTE]

Yeah, when the freaking lazy tankermen on the ATB barge would use the hydraulic mooring winches as “constant tension winches” while working cargo instead of making their rounds and taking in the wires as needed, causing the hydraulic lines to break and spill into the water in Port Arthur, the Coasties came looking for me. . .not the Mate, not the Captain, not the lazy freaking tankermen. . . Me. Got a wrist slap, but they DID take my license number down for information’s sake. . . . After that, I would make my rounds on the barge and every unattended winch I found engaged, I would pull back to neutral and inform the deck watch.

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[QUOTE=DeckApe;184864]
My formal secondary language training showed me how difficult it is to frame an idea in another language due to the risk that a single [U]entrant[/U] word or phrase could undue everything I labored to intend.[/QUOTE]

I see what you did there to prove the point. Very effective. I still understood your point too.

31

Oops, that was auto-correct. The errant wordplay was unintentional even as it was ironic and timely.

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[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;184728]If stuff in the engine room doesn’t get done the Master gets blamed. If the Chief pumps oil over the side the Master gets blamed. It’s the Master’s ship, both deck and engine room. The Chief Engineer runs the engine room usually without much interference and the Chief Mate runs the deck, usually without much interference. The Master is the boss of both of them.[/QUOTE]

Not true. Look up EPA’s most wanted. You will see that it’s all chief engineers, not a single master. But it may be true on tugs.

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[QUOTE=Yeasty McFlaps;184900]Not true. Look up EPA’s most wanted. You will see that it’s all chief engineers, not a single master. But it may be true on tugs.[/QUOTE]

Not in my experience. . . . but that goes back a decade or two. . or is that three. . .

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EPA Fugitives:

  1. [B][U]John Karayannides[/U][/B]: is acused of being the mastermind behind the dumping of 440 tons of oil-soaked grain from a U.S. cargo ship into the South China Sea in 1999.

2.[B][U]Aage Lokkebraten:[/U][/B] He was the Senior First engineeer. I think this happened in 2003 but I am not 100% sure? The cruise line’s outside auditor actually witnessed NCL engineers aboard the SS Norway in the act of circumventing the ship’s Oil Water Separator, a required pollution prevention device. The engineers deliberately used fresh water to trick a machine’s oil sensor designed to detect and limit the overboard discharges. NCL reported the criminal conduct to the government, which was already investigating the whistle-blower’s tip, and has cooperated in the government’s investigation.

  1. [B][U]Michael Evangelos Psomadakis:[/U][/B] In 1993, Michael Evangelos Psomadakis was the chief engineer aboard RCCL’s Nordic Empress cruise ship which routinely discharged oil into the water. But the Nordic Empress was no island to itself. RCCL’s fleet of ships was regularly dumping pollutants from Biscayne Bay here in Miami to the pristine waters in Alaska.

  2. [B][U]Peter Solemdal[/U][/B] This also has to do with the SS Norway as listed above from I beleive 2003. He was a cheif engineer.

  3. [B][U]Kurt Sorboe[/U][/B] Was also involved with the SS Norway scandal.

There was recently a new / modified agreement between the USCG and the EPA. https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2014-02/documents/epacoastguardprotocol.pdf

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[QUOTE=cmakin;184887]Yeah, when the freaking lazy tankermen on the ATB barge would use the hydraulic mooring winches as “constant tension winches” while working cargo instead of making their rounds and taking in the wires as needed, causing the hydraulic lines to break and spill into the water in Port Arthur, the Coasties came looking for me. . .not the Mate, not the Captain, not the lazy freaking tankermen. . . Me. Got a wrist slap, but they DID take my license number down for information’s sake. . . . After that, I would make my rounds on the barge and every unattended winch I found engaged, I would pull back to neutral and inform the deck watch.[/QUOTE]

But but but…They are Barge Captains!

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[QUOTE=ForkandBlade;184940]But but but…They are Barge Captains![/QUOTE]

We didn’t have Barge Captains. . . and I also put some of the blame on the Mates that were on watch, too. Did the Coast Guard want to see THEIR licenses? Pfffft. . . . .

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[QUOTE=Charlie Noble;184737]So as to not waste a second of your upcoming career, especially if you’re “on a roll” having graduated from your field of study which, with your permission, I’ll guess wasn’t diplomacy, lets first spend a second on the importance of being a good shipmate. Your use of the term “rules over” is a poor choice of words for an innocent landlubber to use in this forum of highly skilled seamen. Ships run best when the incredible knowledge base and experience on board are finely tuned for maximum performance with good management. There’s no “ruling”. If it becomes necessary for you to know how very senior officers on your first ship interact before you master the knowledge of which end of the ship the propeller is on, you’ve probably murdered someone and the fact of “who rules” will take on real importance.

Do everything you can to get smart technically as fast as you can. When you join the ship find the C/Mate, tell him who you are, ask him for guidance on when the Master wishes you to report for signing on. Next find your cabin, change into coveralls, sharpen your pencil for notes, and see the C/Engineer for direction. You will be overwhelmed with what you don’t know, at times discouraged you’ll never be able to run a 3/Eng’r watch, question your choice of your post “field of study” careers, get homesick, but of all the things you will have become painfully aware of not knowing, I can let you relax on the question of whether you know if the Master “rules” the C/Engineer. You’ll learn quickly to acknowledge you’ve only seen the Master at fire and boat drills since you got underway and you don’t have coffee with the C/Engineer, so you’re the last guy on the ship to wonder out loud who’s running who.

Learn how to be a shadow man. Be as invisible as possible while you’re learning your trade. Soon you’ll know that you should reserve your opinion of who’s good and who’s not until you’ve been his shipmate for 6 months. In reflection, after your 1st underway period, you’ll realize the folks you thought were neat at first, by the end of the voyage, will have lost their luster and the folks you were luke warm to initially, became better friends as time progressed. A skill you will acquire by osmosis will be how to interact with others in a small space over a long period of time. Even though you did not cover it in school you’ll figure out things like, on your 1st night in port, go ahead and give the guy running into the head the right of way. You’ll learn that no matter what the guys “swear” they’ve seen or overheard, if the Capt. let’s you dance with his wife don’t try to slip her the tounge. You’ll learn, with no one teaching you, not to ask the 1/Eng’r. why you have to always make the coffee when you “rule” over the wiper.

As your career progresses, your responsibilities will increase as will the knowledge you’ll need to be successful in your new position. You will have many bosses on your way up. Each man will have you making mental notes on what leadership that man possessed to get things done efficiently; what he did to muster unsolicited respect and how necessary it is for the C/Eng’r. to manage the ship’s hotel services, the propulsion of the ship, maintaining cargo quality (reefer,electric) insuring personnel accountability and financial responsibility so that, as a department head, along with the other departments not only makes himself irreplaceable but key to the proper management of the ship that the owners demand, and are insured compliance by, the Master’s direction, suggestions and when necessary, advice. Neither the Master or the C/Eng’r should keep score. They have been chosen, not only for their skills and knowledge but for their ability to cooperate while doing what’s necessary to deliver cargo. It’s never a question of who “rules”. I will let you in on a conclusion it took me many years at which to arrive. Companies don’t really care if you run a 4.0 or a 3.0 ship. You’re there so they don’t get phone calls. You’re there so that owning that ship and delivering cargo, for them, is as easy as possible. You can see now that ruling, controlling and intimidation are mindsets that guarantee unsuccessful operations, overly cumbersome meeting of deadlines and the final nail in career ending, too much financial investment to complete taskings. Department heads are completely aware of the inter departmental cooperation they, by their personal investment insure. The C/Eng’r like the Master have singular, non transferable, unique responsibility to each other and the ship. Occasionally, the Master breaks ties, conveys changes to previous directives issued by the owner and by way of the Master’s respect for the C/Eng’rs exposure, might express a solution to an awkward situation the C/Eng’r may have chosen not to follow or thought of at all. Conflict resolution is not “ruling”.

As a cadet, you should only hope the Master signs your discharge with the right sea days, pays you without error and gets you to the airport on time. If the C/Eng’r gives you a good recommendation to go back to school with, as far as you are concerned they both rule.

You can ask your question in any waterfront bar, anywhere. You’ll be amazed at how much first hand knowledge and experience even the butter cutters have and are willing to share with you on the sensitivities of marine leadership that they would gladly share with the ship owners the very next time they have overlapping tee times in Dubai.[/QUOTE]

You are totally right. I am sorry for my poor choose of words, I guess the fact that english is my second language and that I was asking this question around the 3am or so, led me to use the wrong word.

In fact, I didn’t meant “Rule”, actually I wanted to know more about the relationship between the Chief Engineer and the Master. As well as who is in charge of what more specifically even if I alredy have a little knowledge about this, but I wanted to know more about some of your sea life experience. I am also thankful for your answer as well as the answer of anyone who has been so kind to answer me and also to point out my words-mistake so that I could correct myself.