Based on what I’ve read here (fwiw) the difference between a C/M and a second captain is operational not legal.
In some cases it is possible to split the crew and run 24/7 while the watch below, stays below. In some cases it is not possible.
When I was mate on tug and barge some operations required both the captain and the mate. Landing or getting underway, flopping alongside or narrow channels for example. During letting go for instance, the mate was on the bow of the barge with a radio and the captain was in the wheel house. Except in an emergency, I was not authorized to get the tug and barge underway on my own and the deck hand was not authorized to take the mate’s spot.
On the coastal freighter on the Alaska run on the other hand, once I had about a year experience, if we had an extra deck hand the captain and I could run boat 24/7 six on six off. In almost all operations whom ever was below, stayed below. In this case, as mate, I was authorized to get underway, moor, shift, whatever while the captain was below and the deck hand was authorized to work the bow as required, tying up, anchoring or what have you.
From a legal standpoint there is no difference between the two cases above. In each case the mate (or second captain) derives his/her authority from the captain.
On large ship the crew is too small to split into two watches and the mate lacks the authority and often the expertise to do many tasks which are required (dealing with port authorities, customs etc) Often the watch below is required for operations.
This sounds more like a confusion of terminology. Different segments of the industry using the same term for different jobs and different terms for the same jobs.
2nd Captain (or 3rd, 4th etc.) seems to me like a made up OSV or crewboat term and is more analogous to C/M, 2/M on a ship or just “the Mate” on a tugboat.
Inland pushboats seem to use the term Pilot in place of mate and the Mate is really more like the Bosun so no, the Mate would not be authorized to move the boat.
I’ve also seen some Mates on tugboats who were not authorized by the Captain or company but were by the USCG. Just the way they do business.
Throw in the Tankerman a.k.a “Barge Captain” and it can get real fuzzy real fast.
While I am not normally a fan of adding more USCG intrusion into our lives I wouldn’t mind some sort of regulation of terminology so we could at least all get on the same page. Its the same with licensing. They use different terms between deck and engine for essentially the same license. A Chief (Ltd), is the equivalent of Master 1600 and DDE is the equivalent of Master 500. Why not call them that. Chief 1600 and Chief 500. It gets even more confusing when you through in the HP. You have a guy with Chief (Limited), Unlimited … what the heck is that???
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;84086]Based on what I’ve read here (fwiw) the difference between a C/M and a second captain is operational not legal…[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=KPEngineer;84090…]… I wouldn’t mind some sort of regulation of terminology so we could at least all get on the same page. Its the same with licensing. …[/QUOTE]
See the definitions of “chief mate” and “first assistant engineer” in 46 CFR 10.107, they make no distinction for tonnage or horsepower. It sounds like a “second captain” fits that definition.
[QUOTE=KPEngineer;84090…]…It gets even more confusing when you through in the HP. You have a guy with Chief (Limited), Unlimited … what the heck is that???[/QUOTE]
The Coast Guard does not use the term “unlimited” to refer to horsepower or tonnage for deck licenses, e.g. “Chief Engineer of Motor Vessels [U]of any horsepower[/U]” or “Chief Engineer (Limited-Near Coastal) of motor vessels [U]of any horsepower[/U]”
[QUOTE=KPEngineer;84090]This sounds more like a confusion of terminology. Different segments of the industry using the same term for different jobs and different terms for the same jobs.
2nd Captain (or 3rd, 4th etc.) seems to me like a made up OSV or crewboat term and is more analogous to C/M, 2/M on a ship or just “the Mate” on a tugboat…
[/QUOTE]
Yes, it just terminology but the terms second captain, pilot and barge captain convey to the non-mariners the concept that the person has significant authority. In the deep-sea world mariners understand that the chief mate is a position of significant authority,
I think relativity speaking, a second captain has more authority on the vessel then does the deep sea C/M, for example the C/M cannot get the vessel u/w.
Why does it get under all of y`all skin so much that we have 2nd captains in the gulf on OSV’s?
The second is the relief and is in charge for half their hitch when the lead is at home.
I’m on the logs as mate but when talking to the client when they refer to me as Captain and I don’t correct them. No sense in confusing their simple minds. Is that what upsets some of y`all? Do you feel that some of you’re power is taken away when someone calls who ever is on watch captain even if it’s not you?
Now this is not talking about how the CG looks at command structure and what not in the case of an accident.
You don’t. You have a Captain and a Mate. Look at your COI. What is your crew compliment listed? Let me guess… A licensed Master. If operated over 12 hours a licensed Mate. Does it say a second anything?
The second is the relief and is in charge for half their hitch when the lead is at home.
So, what you are saying is: you are a Mate Half the time and a Master the other half?
I’m on the logs as mate but when talking to the client when they refer to me as Captain and I don’t correct them. No sense in confusing their simple minds.
Absolutely. So because the customer doesn’t know who they are talking to… You become the Master?
Is that what upsets some of y`all? Do you feel that some of you’re power is taken away when someone calls who ever is on watch captain even if it’s not you?
Nope. No BS like this is allowed on any vessel I have been on. Sounds unprofessional. There is only ONE master aboard a vessel. There may be 15 aboard who are fully licensed. But there is only one top dog.
Now this is not talking about how the CG looks at command structure and what not in the case of an accident.
Of course. When the shit hits the fan the finger pointing starts.
[QUOTE=jdcavo;84100]The Coast Guard does not use the term “unlimited” to refer to horsepower or tonnage for deck licenses, e.g. “Chief Engineer of Motor Vessels [U]of any horsepower[/U]” or “Chief Engineer (Limited-Near Coastal) of motor vessels [U]of any horsepower[/U]”[/QUOTE]
I have my Licenses going back to 1994. All say [I]Vessels of any horsepower[/I]. However I believe my earlier Licenses said[I] Vessels of unlimited horsepower[/I]. I could very well be wrong.
Come on guys this has been discussed already. This all came about after the introduction of DP. Way back when if you had another captain onboard he was just the mate. He was a master on his regular boat but just a mate working over somewhere else. If some of the crew had previously worked with him out of respect he might be addressed as captain so and so. Others may take the chance to skewer him by saying “hey mate” when addressing him. I would be in that crowd. Everyone was perfectly clear who the master was so there was never an issue. There was always respect between the guys so if the master heard the other guy being addressed as captain he didn’t flip out. After DP was introduced most of the lead masters at a company were the only ones trained at first. It would not be uncommon to have two masters on a boat. As Jempplayer said one guy is lead is whole 28 the other is lead for that guys 14 off. Later on as DP was more prevalent the oil companies started requiring two masters onboard at all times. Everyone knows who the master onboard is. The “2nd captain” is aware of his position and he may be addressed as captain out of respect. Technically he would be the chief mate but since it isn’t on the COI we have what we have.
[QUOTE=KPEngineer;84109]The word “unlimited” may not appear on the license but it is used in the MSM and by REC and NMC personnel.[/QUOTE]
Oh for the good old days when all you needed to carry in order to sign-on a ship was your “Z-Card” and License, plus, if you were Union, your union clearance.
[QUOTE]“Captain” is a purely informal term. On your COI it will list a required Bridge complement including one “Master” and some number of the various flavors of “Mate”. Everyone knows who’s who and what is what. In the GoM, informally, there are Captains and Mates. Captains are legally qualified to command the vessel, though not necessarily in the eyes of management. Mates are qualified to command a navigational watch and nothing else. When someone holds a Master’s license, they are generally referred to as Captain by the other officers and crew out of respect even if they are filling a Mate slot, particularly when they have a history of command.
Normally, the owner or manager will entrust the overall operation of the vessel to the lead Master. He is generally considered responsible for the operational and regulatory condition of the vessel. If he were to be absent during an important inspection, but that inspection went badly, it is quite possible that he could be demoted or fired depending on the outcome, unless the problems are somehow attributable to the actions of the Relief Master (as in, making poorly considered remarks to the inspector or failing to satisfy important requirements during his command). The Relief Captain, while legally culpable for the actions he takes or does not take while the vessel is under his command, is somewhat protected from overall responsibility for the vessel where management is concerned. If the vessel is in poor condition or things are in a disorganized state, the Relief Captain can safely point to the lead Captain, provided he has of course done his due diligence while he was in command. So it is possible that the Relief Captain can preside over an inspection that goes poorly, and be promoted as a result.
I think this system works pretty well all things considered, especially where the Relief Captain is more junior and has less familiarity with the process of inspection and general regulatory requirements. It gives the Relief a good opportunity to run Master with ‘training wheels’ so to speak. If you have two men working even time as Master, then obviously that burden shifts somewhat although one may be considered junior: the greater opportunity he is given to command the vessel necessarily increases the degree to which he is culpable for its condition. All of these are informal moral valuations that are left up to the discretion of management.
[/QUOTE]
Is that what upsets some of y`all? Do you feel that some of you’re power is taken away when someone calls who ever is on watch captain even if it’s not you?
Nope. No BS like this is allowed on any vessel I have been on. Sounds unprofessional. There is only ONE master aboard a vessel. There may be 15 aboard who are fully licensed. But there is only one top dog.
At least you admit it hurts your feelings.
Every one on board knows who’s the big dog, but who fucking cares what the guy on tower is called while on watch as long as the job gets done. Trying to correct every dock worker, rigger, and crane operator when they call me captain is to much of a pain in the ass and would just lead to confusion.
[QUOTE=Jemplayer;84124]At least you admit it hurts your feelings.
and would just lead to confusion.[/QUOTE]
No. I really don’t care. But having read about the sea, and traditions for the last couple hundred years I respect the Title. It is earned. NOT assumed. Just because others have a license, does NOT make them a Captain. I have have guys come aboard with bigger licenses than mine who don’t know shit from shinola. Also, I have had deckhands come on who know their shit, and as soon as they get licensed, I do all in my power to encourage and promote them.
Yes. It DOES lead to confusion. Until the buck stops. Then it is amazing how everyone else shrinks into the woodwork and becomes “The Mate”, The “Deckhand”, The Engineer". Like I said before. There could be 15 guys aboard with masters licenses. But there is only ONE Master. It is not a shared title. Well, it is not shared if you have respect for the title. If you are a Mate… you are a Mate.
Personally, I think your title would be ‘Relief Captain’. But I don’t care what you call yourself. I want to share with others the thought that this ‘made up’ title crap is stupid. Go find your preferred title anywhere in the USCG license list, I can think of several Captains who are like you. Bell Captain. (the guy who grabs your luggage at the Hotel.) Staff Captain. (the guy who is in charge of the restaurant help) Or Captain of an Icecream Cart.
[QUOTE=cappy208;84136]No. I really don’t care. But having read about the sea, and traditions for the last couple hundred years I respect the Title. It is earned. NOT assumed. Just because others have a license, does NOT make them a Captain. I have have guys come aboard with bigger licenses than mine who don’t know shit from shinola. Also, I have had deckhands come on who know their shit, and as soon as they get licensed, I do all in my power to encourage and promote them.
Yes. It DOES lead to confusion. Until the buck stops. Then it is amazing how everyone else shrinks into the woodwork and becomes “The Mate”, The “Deckhand”, The Engineer". Like I said before. There could be 15 guys aboard with masters licenses. But there is only ONE Master. It is not a shared title. Well, it is not shared if you have respect for the title. If you are a Mate… you are a Mate.
Personally, I think your title would be ‘Relief Captain’. But I don’t care what you call yourself. I want to share with others the thought that this ‘made up’ title crap is stupid. Go find your preferred title anywhere in the USCG license list, I can think of several Captains who are like you. Bell Captain. (the guy who grabs your luggage at the Hotel.) Staff Captain. (the guy who is in charge of the restaurant help) Or Captain of an Icecream Cart.[/QUOTE]
I see you point Cappy but I don’t see the big deal. I was surprised when I first heard he term but I don’t see that the titles is a big deal. If I told my Chief Mate his new title was second captain he’d just keep working without missing a beat. Taking vessels to sea is basically the same everywhere,
Your right about people disappearing into the woodwork when the shit his the fan.
There is no such thing as a chief mate with limited tonnage license, and I believe the whole 2nd captain originated back when the oilfield boats were not required to have captains at all they had operators. Which left you with a first operator and second operator, which has translated over to 1st captain and 2nd captain with the change in licenses over the years.
I do know that when I was overseas customs would not accept an official crew list with two crew members onboard listed as Master and Captain.
I’m wagering a guess on this but Unlimited guys are use to equal time on/off, so the 2 captain’s never work with each other. Many of the OSV’s historically work 3 on and 1 off so the relief captain is sometimes the Master and sometimes works more like a Chief Mate but HR can only give him one job title so he becomes “relief Captain”.