I’ve been on the same boat for 5 1/2 years now. We have 7 cats onboard. We replaced one engine 5 years ago. It had just been rebuilt by Lousy-Ana machinery. It had about 200 hours at the time it blew up. Since that time we have had in frames on the generators at 15,000 intervals. Other than a random J/W regulator or water pump they are all tip top. The preceding 3 years I was on a boat with 16-645’s , 71 Detroits and a Cummins KTA-19. The cummins ran like a top. The GM products were constantly broke down, leaking oil, burning oil, dropping valves, bad rings bad blowers you name it. Every boat I worked with all Cat machinery was minimal repair. Every boat I’ve ever worked with GM’s was a nightmare. I’ve spent the majority of my mud boat career with Cats. My deep sea career was mostly steam. I’d rather keep up a dual boiler plant and all that goes with it than a little pair of EMD’s.
I’ve been on the same osv for almost 4 years. First 3608-C280 went right after 100 hrs. Second 3608-C280 went at 6284 hrs. Both of which were on the port side. Over 13 injector, 2 water pumps, 1 fuel pump, exhaust belows, blown out exhaust bung plugs, flex joints, a 1 main rear seal. The mighty C32 generators… where to begin. 2 cyclinder heads, 7 injectors, 1 alternator end due to bad bearings, 5 expansion tanks, 11 thermostat regulator housings, 13 gilkes water pumps, 1 cat ecm just to name a few.
EMD, 1 turbo on a 710 series, 2 blowers from 645 & 567, 3 jacket water pumps over 8 year period between 567,645, & 710 series. Not one catastrophic damage to pull the engine. Sure I had a few injectors to changed out, even a power pack just one time. Only GM engine I ever seen get swung was a 16-149ti from dropping a valve.
Hmm who knows we have about 18 3516’s Bs&Cs never problems for the last 15 years+. 3304&06 gens that will never die. Guess you must be the jonah of cat engines on the boats you ride ;).
Had the fare share of shitty 3512 and 16 hd and b series. I definitely call bullshit of 18 of them never having trouble. Been through countless turbos to dropping valves and spinning main bearings. The most reliable engine I’ve had that was Cat is the old 398/399 series until to deck is so bad you have to chunk the engine. Which was replaced with a 3512.
My vessel isn’t the only in our fleet with the same trouble by the way. Over 4 other vessel have swung out C280 and C32. You know it’s sad when the ABS guy tells you good luck getting to 8000 hrs.
I’ll just say that I know rshew’s company and they are a top notch operation that would not waste a moment with junk equipment or feed anyone any BS. If he says their CATs are good engines believe it! That’s why those are the only engines they buy!
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;68713]I’ve been on the same boat for 5 1/2 years now. We have 7 cats onboard. We replaced one engine 5 years ago. It had just been rebuilt by Lousy-Ana machinery. It had about 200 hours at the time it blew up. Since that time we have had in frames on the generators at 15,000 intervals. Other than a random J/W regulator or water pump they are all tip top. The preceding 3 years I was on a boat with 16-645’s , 71 Detroits and a Cummins KTA-19. The cummins ran like a top. The GM products were constantly broke down, leaking oil, burning oil, dropping valves, bad rings bad blowers you name it. Every boat I worked with all Cat machinery was minimal repair. Every boat I’ve ever worked with GM’s was a nightmare. I’ve spent the majority of my mud boat career with Cats. My deep sea career was mostly steam. I’d rather keep up a dual boiler plant and all that goes with it than a little pair of EMD’s.[/QUOTE]
Interesting. I also started my career in steam, but I had just the opposite experience with EMDs; and I have run all types of the 645s, from 8 to 16 with blowers along with turbo 16s and 20s. As I mentioned either earlier in this thread or in another, the biggest problems were the turbos, but in 6 years and on several different plants, I only changed three (and one of those was because of hours). Water pumps, power packs, injectors, a few. Most often the power pack changes due to busted rings found during an inspection.
That said, I have not run too many Cats, except as generators. I DO have some experience with all types of engines from my years back with ABS, too. Like anything else, engines will run as well as you maintain them; and there are a few tricks to EMDs (keeping the airbox drain clear is a big one that many do not pay attention to).
so what is a good engine these days
[QUOTE=rshrew;68718]Hmm who knows we have about 18 3516’s Bs&Cs never problems for the last 15 years+. 3304&06 gens that will never die. Guess you must be the jonah of cat engines on the boats you ride ;).[/QUOTE]
I’m with you on this one. We have a fleet of Cat 3500’s as well, 8 3512HD engines and 2 3512B engines. In my 3 years, we’ve scattered two turbos (after having them overhauled and we no longer do business with that vendor), we had a head bolt fail causing a minor coolant leak. Those have been our most significant failures. Exhaust bellows failures are about the most annoying problem I have to deal with, especially on the Tier 1 engines as the lagging is a nightmare to remove. We had several water pump outlet elbow bolts fail (starboard mains only), one bolt ear broke off on one elbow. The one dangerous and repeat problem we keep getting is a failure of the o-ring on the tube that connects the oil cooler to the main oil galley. This is on port mains only and Tier 1 engines only.
Back to the Detroits. They are awesome engines in terms of dependability and operating costs. If you’re having any type of failures on a Detroit auxiliary engine it’s probably because the engine already has 60,000 hours on it. The only engine I know of that can come close to that service life are the Cat 3304/3306 engines. Now, I’m not a big fan of 92 series Detroits. They tend to be over-rated for power and will throw rods if you try to run them in excess of 2100 rpm. This doesn’t make much sense to me because I recently heard of a company in the gulf that is running their 149 engines at 2700 rpm.
will feel the same way.
Captian Chris
Since you are looking for any info on the 1692 DDEC, I wil throw in my 2 cents, and try to give you a brief history or that engine.
Detroit introduced the 92 series in 1974, it was basically a 71 with the same 5 inch stroke, just a bigger bore and it used wet liners. Some of the parts are directly interchangable with the 71 series. The 92 had some items that are bigger than the 71 like valves, rods and bearings, but it is basically an overgrown 71. The mechanical engines at moderate H.P. ratings and keeping the RPM around 1800 they will give very good service life with just basic maintenance. If you try to turn the H.P. or RPM up and they give problems accordingly.
The DDEC is a different issue, to answer some ones elses question in this thread the series 60 Detroit DDEC was the first mass produced electronic diesel engine. Detroit started working on these in 1980. It took them several years to get it ready for release to the public which did not happen until 1987. This engine gained some popularity in the onhighway truck and bus market. It never really gained a following in the marine industry except for a few fishing boats, and generators or stand by engines. Cummins was the second to introduce electronic engines around 1990, replacing the old big cam 855 with what is now the N-14. Cat was the last to switch and that was in 1994, when they introduced the first E model cat.
Detroit put several DDEC versions on the 2 stroke engine’s The DDEC I and II, had isues because they were 12 volt systems and were not compatible with 24 volts, which is the norm in the mariine sector. The DDEC III was the first dual voltage system, which did not come out until around 1994. The next issue they had was the DDEC was built for an inline 6 cylinder, 4 stroke, over head cam engine. They had to make it fit and work on a V-16 2 stroke, with push rods. The injector cups had to be modified because of the need for the high fuel pressure to fire the electronic unit injectors. Most of the issues they had was trying to marry the two systems together. They did not have great sucess with this.
Detroit Diesel was sold basically to Diamler Benz/ Chrysler in 2000, they dropped all of the 2 stroke engines form the line up, and replaced them with the newer 2000, 3000, and 4000 series engines. The DDEC 92 engines were only made a few years. It depends on what you are expecting out of the engine. At yacht guy will love them because with the DDEC IV, 2 turbos and an aftercooler or 2 you can push the HP rating over 1000 HP . However they will not last like that.
Another issue with them is they will not pass emission standards, so resale will be only for older hulls or if you find some one that just absoutly needs one. Also they will burn more fuel than any other engine brand with the same HP rating. So to answer your question it depends on what you are wanting to do with the engine, what you will expect out of it, and who will be paying for the fuel. Plus as many people stated earlier they are very very noisy.
thanks ChiefRob for a well thought out reply to the original question. I learned a lot from what you posted.
And I still hate Detroits (except for the old slow speed HN versions which are actually built like battleship armor)
[QUOTE=ChiefRob;70443]Captian Chris
Another issue with them is they will not pass emission standards, so resale will be only for older hulls or if you find some one that just absoutly needs one. Also they will burn more fuel than any other engine brand with the same HP rating. So to answer your question it depends on what you are wanting to do with the engine, what you will expect out of it, and who will be paying for the fuel. Plus as many people stated earlier they are very very noisy.[/QUOTE]
This isn’t true. I recently overhauled a 6-71 N series engine with a kit that adds a turborcharger and uses special liners, injectors, pistons, and cam. It meets CARB Tier II emissions standards. That’s without using electronic injectors. We are getting ready to build a second. Similar kits are also available for most 92 series engines. The same company is working on Tier 3 and 4 kits as this is the last year to grandfather Tier 2 engines. It wasn’t cheap to do this, I spent $14 grand on the overhaul but Detroit is one of the only manufacturers that allows 100% PTO from the front of the crank.
And to say the 2-stroke line was dropped in 2000 is also incorrect. Detroit Diesel has never stopped producing the engines for military applications, about 2500 units a year but I hear they have recently upped production to 25,000 units a year.
[QUOTE=87cr250r;70949]This isn’t true. I recently overhauled a 6-71 N series engine with a kit that adds a turborcharger and uses special liners, injectors, pistons, and cam. It meets CARB Tier II emissions standards. That’s without using electronic injectors. We are getting ready to build a second. Similar kits are also available for most 92 series engines. The same company is working on Tier 3 and 4 kits as this is the last year to grandfather Tier 2 engines. It wasn’t cheap to do this, I spent $14 grand on the overhaul but Detroit is one of the only manufacturers that allows 100% PTO from the front of the crank.
And to say the 2-stroke line was dropped in 2000 is also incorrect. Detroit Diesel has never stopped producing the engines for military applications, about 2500 units a year but I hear they have recently upped production to 25,000 units a year.[/QUOTE]
The first round of EPA emissions Tier I was phased in from 1994 to 1997, with on highway engines having to be in full compliance by 1998. The 2 stroke detroits would not pass this emission standard then. They were dropped from the line up for all comercial sales, in 2000 this being one of the big factors in the decision. If you want to start talking retrofit kits, you can probably do all sorts of crazy things if you want to spend that large amount of money. Most people would never consider spending 14 grand on a 6/71, at least no one that I know.
They still have some government contract for a couple 6V53’s and a I think a 8V149 for a M109 tank or something like that. They are not available to the public, one reason being the emissions. Engines made by Detroit are still availabe for sale, most how ever being remaned under the relibult name, or through a dealer like stewart stevenson, or one of many others that have a supply of these to be rebuilt that will probably be around almost forever. These are not new engines, they are remanufactured.
I can not guote the military contracts from Detroit because that is seperate from the comerical sales. I know people in the comerical side, I don’t know anyone on the military side.
Caterpillar, Cummins, and a few others have PTO avalabilty on the front of the engine. My uncle has a shrimp boat with a 3408 Cat with a PTO on the front for the winch. Most of the shrimpers down here run Cummins or Cats with PTO on the front. That is one of the reasons the 60 series detroit never caught on for the marine use, because to hook a PTO up to the fromt of it has to be done with a coupling, through a small drive shaft and pillar block bearings to make it work. Not east but it can be done.
dont forget GM doesnt own the 2 strokes any more Tognum does
[QUOTE=powerabout;71477]dont forget GM doesnt own the 2 strokes any more Tognum does[/QUOTE]
Yes you are correct to be 100 percent the GM name has not been used since 1965, they have been called detroit diesels since then. Roger Penske actually purchased the majority of the shares from GM in 1987, then in 2000 Diamler Benz AG, bought Penske’s stock along with the rest of GM stock in the company which put them as about 80% share holders in the whole deal. For the most part the Detroit name is being switched to the MTU brand which is the Motor Tognum division that they call it in Germany.
For the point that 87cr250r made I had to make a phone call to a friend that still works for Detroit, he could not answer the question so he had to make a phone call. This is what he told me about the military stuff.
It seems that 87cr250r and myself are both correct and both wrong in the previous post. Detroit Deisel/MTU does have contracts with our goverment for certain engines associated with military equipment. They do still produce a 6V53, for something, the M109 tank and varients use the 8V71T engine, along with another series of tank that uses the same power plant. They also still produce the 149 series for use as generators in some Navy ships, including the fast frigate class. To fullfill these government contract’s Detroit has to maintain parts, support, and new engine availabilty for the duraton of the contracts. Some of these have already expired and are on extensions, some are from what I was told open end contracts for the life of the M109 tank. Who knows how long that will be. These are basically mechanical engines with a light dose of elecronics, they are not DDEC. Also they are not EPA complinat. The Army does not care about polution on the battle field. Also when I asked about the numbers 87cr250r quoted being produced 2500 to 25,000, The guy from Detroit said how many tanks and ships do you think they are making every year. But he did kind of chuckle at the 25,000 number. So to be correct Detroit does still make certain 2 stroke engines. I apoligize for the mispost, however unless you can sign your name on a check as US ARMY, or US NAVY you can’t buy one of them. These engines can be bought used but they will not pass emissions unless you install an expensive retrofit kit as mentioned.
Detroits are all over the world in lots of equipment and in may armies.
I read a press release on the GM power web site a year or so back and they did 100 either 6/8-92 run for Israeli army tanks
Love to know the company doing the tier II compliant kits
My first job 1979 was on a small dredge with a old 3,new 4.and grey marine 671, large mufflers so all very quite.
They never missed a beat
No BS here. We are working with a company, Clean Cams Technology Systems http://www.cctskit.com/ who offer a kit to bring mechanical 2-stroke Detroit Diesels into not just EPA requirements but CARB requirements. I recently built an engine using their kit. We are gearing up to do the second. The concept behind the kit is simple, they grind all the lift off the cams and use a turbo (which is a much more efficient compressor) to restore the power of the engine. One of the most beneficial side effects of this setup is that the engines are much quieter. They are also supposed to match modern 4-stroke engines such as the John Deere 6081 for fuel efficiency. The kit isn’t cheap. I think we paid about 7 grand for it. It includes a turbo, liners, injectors, cam, and pistons. You have to supply the rest of the overhaul parts. We ended up having to oversize our block so our costs were high. The entire overhaul including installation in the boat was 14k. But the only other engine manufacturer that met our PTO needs was Cat and 14 grand for a 35k hour 1200 rpm Detroit was a much better deal than paying 25k for an equivalent powered Cat that had an advertized life of 25k hours. There would have also been significantly higher installation costs because we would be installing a completely different engine.