my concern here is the helmsman saying the RAI is hard port - or he has place the helm at hard port.
not sure yet at this point if the rudder is actually moving or not - haven’t seen anything yet - that definitively answered that
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As much as people want to shit on foreign sailors, I’ve never had one tell me the rudder is in a place they didn’t want it to be…except when they just go the wrong direction.
I tend to put the faith in the helmsman that he had the wheel hard to port, the RAI showed hard to port, but the ship was swinging to starboard.
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Never seen an AB make that error. Any beginning helmsman making the error of reporting the position of wheel angle indicator rather than the rudder angle indicator would be corrected at once.
I think it’s safe to assume the RAI is being used.
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yea - probably right of course
what drives my doubt is the ship was doing like 6-7 kts - that seems like a lot of steerage way to have no response at all to a full rudder - but again - you guys are prob right
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Hello all
If indeed the plant blacked out 0125:00, there will be no steering or rudder control for (max) 45 secs if the EDG comes on line per requirements.
So that puts out to 0125:45. 2nd mate and Helmsman statements before that I think are involuntary panic outbursts.
I also think the steering gear pumps need to be started from the steering stand after a blackout - at least for the pump that was not operational before the blackout - pump (3? - the smaller pump or power unit capable of moving the rudder 15-15 in 60 secs)
Possible the SG pump was never started - may explain why the Helm states swinging to stbd with the order at hard port.
Wonder if they would have managed to change course to avoid the bridge with the slow rudder - 0.5 degrees/sec. Probably more than a minute to perhaps 20 or so and also possible at that speed it could never make it to hard port. A chance nevertheless. I think if the emerg SG was 35-30 in 28 secs, outcome would have been only skid marks on inner clothing for all on the Bridge.
PS: Not sure if the 2M and Helm were looking at the RAI (or just the compass)
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It’s been a long time since I was on a ship big enough to have one, but wouldn’t the Dali have had a rudder angle recorder of some type? That’d prove where the rudder was and whether the helmsman was reporting wishful thinking or not.
Unfortunately no mention of rudder position even after the incident. VDR does not seem to be recording this. Also no mention of rudder position in the prelim and updated prelim report from NTSB last year.
Quite sure there is an RAI is installed overhead close to center of the wheelhouse. Not likely there are installed outside on the Bridge wings bhd. Probably only RPM.
I also think the Bridge personnel did not recognize it was a complete blackout. They probably initially thought only the main engine tripped and had full steering.
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I would strongly disagree with this. Nearly every ship has both rudder and engine dials on each bridgewing.
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Thought VDR mikes were also in ECR. People talk there too and quite often their conversations are more important then these on the bridge.
Whatis the purpose of dishing out these " preliminary" reports which do not reveal much ??
Any idea???
You may be very well be correct. I am basing it on the transcript where the pilots/others are running to and fro from the wings to the wheelhouse and asking if they have rudder control. 2M and Helmsman indicating they have is also a mystery. Typically the ceiling mounted RAI above the steering stand should also have indicators front left and center. Backlit and visible.
Probably panic in the few minutes after the blackout.
Interesting observation. Not sure about the voice recording in the ECR, but I think NTSB is sorely lacking the appropriate expertise in marine matters. All kinds of expertise available on contributors on this panel as well as locally with the NA/ME firms.
I have read some of their incident reports on aircraft stuff and sounds like a real SME.
I do not know enough on the subject, but I now wonder if these marine reports from them are like gospel to the non-marine public.
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Where did you see this? I don’t recall reading that.
“Sound” of Bridge wing doors open and closing … at least on 2 occasions.
Those occur several minutes before the incident. Also in the middle of the conversation among the pilot and trainee about some of their equipment not working. I would chalk that up to somebody going outside to reset or adjust the outside antenna.
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Again you may be correct. What puzzles me is that there is no mention of the rudder angle in the transcript. If the pilots are inside the wheelhouse, after his order to hard port or port 20, nobody looks at the RAI and advise there is no movement?
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It’s odd.
Unless the rudder was where the pilot wanted it to be.
But then why didn’t the ship turn to port?
Too many unknowns at this point, still.
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I have maintained from day 1 that they had no rudder control for whatever reason. Now whether the rudder is sufficiently effective without the prop is debatable. On this forum, most believe it is not. I am among the few that believe at the speed it is and could have averted this disaster.
Sadly so far none of the NTSB reports sheds any light on this.
Hi guys,
Nice to see RTM back posting again. You were invaluable when we first discussed this after the event 
Yes I must concur with 3M that there would be multiple RAI’s easily visible what I do not know is if Having actually the lighting is part of the emergency back up lighting or not.
Having actually piloted one of Dali’s Sisters I am convinced that at that speed the rudder would have been effective with or without the prop turning.
3M s comment about the doors opening and closing due to difficulties with the PPU do make sense and I posted earlier that there is sometimes difficulties in getting the PPU set up while underneath the gantry cranes. Ironically just as soon as you move off the berth they work just fine. Please don’t ask me why they don’t experience this on berthing as I don’t have a scooby. Many times when acting as second pilot I have found myself attempting to reset the PPU as we are leaving the berth praying that I can get it working for the swing if we are tight on space. This is why we insisted on 2 pilots when carrying a PPU.
Only ships over a certain size had 2 pilots and a PPU
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