To answer some comments made above: In the USA, can a company require you to take a C19 vaccine?
The answer, vetted by our maritime lawyers, who are among the best in the business, is Yes.
The caveat: a person can decline the vaccine for religious reasons. The company has to honor this decision. However, the company can make reasonable precautions in regards to unvaccinated people, and the accommodations are not infinite.
The company can work the person less, or change their schedule. They can require the employee to wear more PPE in the workplace. If, in the end, the company cannot make reasonable precautions, or the employee refuses to take part in them, the employee can be fired.
That is the legal advice from our lawyers. How a company deals with it is up to them.
If you look at the available data from the vaccine trials, theyâre working with pretty limited data as the amount of people in the trials that contracted Covid was rather low.
Determining whether the virus can spread in the presence of antibodies is a difficult task even with more data to work with. Thereâs research still ongoing in vaccines that have been around and approved for decades on that subject.
So it stands to reason that theyâre going to play it safe on that front.
You should ask your lawyers for clarification. You can certainly require vaccinations with full approval. If you try to force someone to take a vaccine authorized for emergency use youâre going to get sued and your lawyers wonât refund your money.
Full approval should be here shortly and the issue will be moot.
Just as a public service to any other employers that didnât bother to read the EUA for the vaccines and may be placing their companies finances in jeopardy due to bad legal advice here is a good blog on the subject that has been covering the legal issues for months now.
I agree that before companies make legal decisions they should contact their lawyers.
I contacted ours today. One of the most prestigious law firms in Seattle. Nationally renowned for their expertise in maritime practice. Their advice hasnât changed from the first time I asked them, months ago:
In short: A company can require immunizations for its employees. Religious reasons or disability are reasons for an employee to refuse the vaccine. The company has to provide reasonable accommodation to such a person, but such actions need not be unlimited.
You cite a blog to the contrary. I read it. I see little that contradicts our law firmâs advice. Indeed, taken as a whole, it confirms what they say. But what does your law firm advise?
From the blog as you so dismissively refer to it, which is put out by the Petrie-Flom center at Harvard Law School:
âDr. Arthur Caplan, Director of NYU Langoneâs Division of Medical Ethics, and Peter Meyers, Law Professor at George Washington University Law School, argue that the Statuteâs âoption to accept or refuseâ negates the possibility of mandatory programs.â
So I see two possibilities:
You are completely ignoring that your law firms advice is based upon the vaccines reaching full, not emergency approval.
Your law firm would gleefully accept your money to argue a case that they have a possibility of winning, after hundreds of thousands in legal fees.
The fact remains that there is no legal precedent for forcing individuals to take a vaccine under EUA, the specific language included in the EUA allows for refusal, and any company/organization that attempts to force an individual against their will to take a vaccine under EUA is at the least going to be responsible for hefty legal fees.
Iâll stick with my legal advice, you stick with yoursâŚ
Could be. But the last time we were sued by a mariner was late '90s or early '00s. Longer than some of the readers here have been alive. So, on that level, our legal advice seems pretty goodâŚ
That probably has more to do with your rigorous pre-employment screening process and safety record than any legal advice. The best lawyers in the world canât save you if you hire a dipshit that sticks a chainsaw in his eye.
If it was legally advisable to mandate EUA vaccines, Iâm fairly sure the people that operate nursing homes would do it.
Commissioned Officer, roll up both sleeves. Covid vaccine will perhaps be one of the most benign you take. For instances the 7 shot Anthrax, with all sorts of implications and unknowns. Even on an MSC spot charters the shots have been mandatory for years. Take the vax or go home. Reports are sent regularly with the complete Vax of all crew. My shot card is 4 pages long, none of hurt me yet. It seems to me that when you live in a small closed environment you should be willing for the good of all to roll up you sleeve, and take the vax that required even if you dont believe the science or think it the virus is political. Seems Mav, your Commission is starting out with it being more about you and your career than service, there is a little more to it. You donât want to 'simp" to the governement and your taking a Commission, huh?
I have absolutely no idea. If someone that is in a risk group is refusing the vaccine, it seems like you could simply fire them for having bad judgement and not bring up the vaccine at all.
My employerâs official policy is that Covid vaccination is a voluntary employee choice. Existing employees are encouraged, but not strong armed to get vaccinations.
However, potential new employees are asked if they are vaccinated, or are willing to be vaccinated as soon as possible. Having the vaccination or being willing to get it , is a factor taken into consideration when making hiring decisions.
People looking for jobs contact me all the time. The office asks me âdo you know do and soâ all the time. I do not refer or recommend anti-vaxers.
An important thing to remember is that unlike shoreside jobs, a maritime employer is responsible for crewmenâs health and obligated to pay for maintenance and cure if a crewman gets sick, not just injured. Also, the cost of diverting a vessel for an unplanned crew change in the middle of nowhere with a charter flight is also substantial. Often $100,000 and up. No employer in his right mind wants to be subjected to this risk unnecessarily just because an employee has a misguided antivaxer ideology.
The dynamic where I work is that mariners are trying their best to get vaccinated. They canât get vaccinated fast enough. There will likely be couple who wonât get vaccinated for religious reasons. As long as its only a couple, itâs not an issue. Who knowsâwhenever things ease up, they will probably be required to follow present regs longer than anyone else, but not that much longer.
So far, the vaccine issue isnât a big deal at this company.
I turned into a parrot for eight or nine hours. It was awesome. I squawked and dodged the cat and took a shit in the macaroni salad.
Seriously though, you canât be forced to take it, but I highly recommend you do so for a number of reasons. Once it is FDA approved full bells and whistles, it can become hard to work- especially if you travel internationally.
Also wanted to add- that I felt a bit fatigued for a few days but that wore off- beats the hell out of playing Covid roulette.
It is interesting to see how all of us may use our words imprecisely⌠But we all know lawyers are very specific:
Requirement is a necessity or prerequisite; something required or obligatory
Mandate is an official or authoritative command; an order or injunction; a commission; a judicial precept.
Force means unlawful violence, or lawful compulsion.
A private company cannot mandate employees get vaccinated. But they can require it, with caveats. Even if they require it, they cannot legally force it.
Thanks to hardtolee for emphasis on âprivateâ.
If your on a Govt contracted vessel a requirement is a mandate, and if your becoming a Commissioned Officer you surrender your civil liberties with your oath, I am not sure young Mav got that,
