[QUOTE=CurryAK;89020]Has anyone used combined tonnage on an atb for an unlimited license upgrade?[/QUOTE]
It’s only allowed to meet half of the required service, and is discounted to 1 day of credit for every 2 days served. See 46 CRR 11.211(d)
[QUOTE=tugsri;88749]An ATB is NOT a Tugboat. It is two distinct and separate pieces of equipment used to transport Cargo. As the ATB Boom began, guys who were tired of getting their asses beaten up on wire and hawser boats started making the switch. Years of actual TOWING and BOAT HANDLING experience came with these people. This was from years of dropping a barge, grabbing another and doing it all over again. And you Prayed for an outside trip for a break. An ATB job was given to the cream of the crop, with proven Boat Handling Skills. Companies were happy, move more cargo for less $$, no weather delays, minimal crew increases. And better living conditions for the crew. A win-win.
The USCG, per Usual, allowed it self to be manipulated by the companies, using the Grey Tonnage Area, by which manning and hour requirements are different between Inspected and Uninspected, as we all know. The prevailing industry standards and attitude of the Tug/Barge came with new equipment. 6/6, 6 or 7 crew members, ect…
The came the Pin-Boat idea-ah, retrofit! ATB, maybe-hard to figure out What they are…that “Grey” area again.
Yes, there NEEDS to be a Distinct And Separate Class for the Actual ATB, the Crowley Class, the new Reinauer Boats, the US Shipping Vessels, the OSG Units.
It is unfathomable that a Towing Endorsement can be signed off on from a boat which has No Tow Gear!
As the older Tug Guys who were the first on the ATBs retire, those years of experience go with them. There is No Way someone is going to “String Out” Crowleys 255 Series Barge, or the RTC-135… .The Unit is made to PUSH, not TOW. The only people who have a Chance of this are becoming Scarcer and scarcer. Ship work is ship work-and a REAL ATB is a Ship, not a Tug.
If you have an ear to the Industry, you can listen to the frustration of Tug Boat Captains who get Whole crews who have Never so much as hooked up a tow wire, rigged a bridle or even made up along side.
For the Safety of all Mariners a Separate and Distinct Class of Vessels is a Must![/QUOTE]
Towing by definition includes pushing!
[QUOTE=silverbk;89022]Here is a link that I have discovered while researching this topic. If anything is incorrect or outdated please advise:
…So the commonly expressed misconception that there’s some magical 300GRT towing license has no basis in regulatory fact. If you have a towing license, and only a towing license, then on [B]near coastal[/B] or [B]oceans[/B] voyages you are restricted to vessels of [B]less[/B] than [B]200GRT[/B]. [/QUOTE]
This is not consistent with what the Coast Guard stated when the final rule on the towing vessel license was published. From the June 17, 2003, Federal Register (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2003-06-17/pdf/03-15225.pdf - look on page 35808 under “License Stipulations”):
…in this final rule,
allows mariners licensed under this rule
to operate all towing vessels of less than
300 GRT on domestic voyages on oceans
and near-coastal waters, and, if they
satisfy international requirements, on
foreign voyages.
It doesn’t matter what the coast guard stated when there us a black and white law stating that to operate vessels over 200get you must have a license other than a towing license.
Your 1600 ton mate license is also listed add an “endorsement” now, not a license…
Gheesh… I got a fricking splitting headache over this…
I’m still waiting for someone to prove that a company has 100 ton peeps steering ATBs. Alot of sea lawyer quotes, copies of partial regs, but proof is in the pudding!
You haven’t been paying attention. The 100 ton part of the license is irrelevant, you cannot steer an ATB with only a 100 ton masters license. You can however steer one if you have a 100 ton AND “master of towing vessels” or “mate of towing vessels” and apparently you can steer it on an near coastal or oceans route or otherwise within the confines of the license.
Not true. Uninspected Towing vessels have a Seperate and distinct licensing structure. UTVs and the MOTV license qualifies one to operate a ‘Less than 300 T’ towing vessel in Inland and near Coastal waters (Shoreward of the demarcation line). With NO tonnage restriction. When operating OUTSIDE the demarcation line, the OCCA '36 comes into play. USC 8104, 8105. Parts a,f,g,h.
Pretty much all near coastal waters are outside the demarcation line. For example, the demarcation line runs from cape may to cape Henlopen. Look on your chart, you cannot leave the Delaware bay and be inside the demarcation line.
This means that Cavo’s quote about being able to operate vessels up to 300grt on domestic oceans and near coastal voyages is voided by US law, regardless of what the coast guard “intended”.
With all the mix-matched regs being quoted and confusion, maybe that’s why the companies are running the ATBs with deck officers with minimum 500 ton NC and appropriate towing endorsements?
That, but its also just good business. Considering how you must take so many additional classes and take a much harder test to obtain greater then 200 grt, its fair to say that its obvious why companys preffer it.
From what I have seen, it is so no matter where the ATB is sent, they don’t have to ‘remove’ and shuffle people all over. Several years ago there was a glut of licenses, and very few tugs over 200 GT. Now almost every new build is over 200… OR the customers are requiring the bigger licenses. I heard from one vettor (UK based) that the oil companies are only now realizing that these deadweight tonnages equal small ships and are being commanded by 200 ton licenses. It was sort of shocking to some customers.
The Boundary Line and Demarcation Line are two separate and distinct things that rarely coincide. Demarcation Line separates Inland and International rules. Boundary Line separates Inland and Ocean waters for regulatory purposes such as seatime and loadline requirements.
[QUOTE=tengineer;88691]Let history be your guide. Changing the loophole won’t happen until after a disaster of some sort involving the manning of the ATBs, might take a couple of disasters. Only a loss of lives and/or an environmental catastrophe has ever changed anything with USCG safety requirements. It’s the politicians and the money that they pull in that rules the USCG.[/QUOTE]
So will having an unlimited license magically infuse said watch stander with the gift of omnipotent skill and knowledge to know exactly what to do to avoid disaster…I call bullshit. The limited or unlimited license has no bearing on this argument. Towing experience is the only answer to the ability to deal with an emergency requiring breakouts. Everything else is just crap. Increased manning as one post suggested (12 crew members) will help the fatigue issue to a degree although any of the designs I’ve seen so far won’t handle more than ten.
IMHO the unlimited community has their panties in a bunch because they aren’t at the top of this particular food chain. So what if we ask for the tonnage to grant an upgrade, we’re pushing the damn tonnage aren’t we? If we pass the exams, so be it. If I went to medical school and pass the board exams I’m a doctor right? So if I pass all the assessments and exams I’m an upper level license holder working on an ATB who actually has towing experience, scary huh?
Gentlemen, those of us running ATB’s aren’t on a ship. We know we’re as big as one, but still, not a ship. We do our own dockings and sailings. We take pilots when we need them, but we’re doing the work. Both myself as Master and my C/M are “hands-on” boat handlers. The few times we’ve towed our barge alongside worked out well and since it’s normal tugboat work, we’re okay with it. No one practices a breakout on an ATB, that practice was acquired on a conventional tug and practiced many times. For the design I’m on (single mode ATB) we also plan on it being a breakout and hold operation, not a breakout and proceed op. When we phase out the coastal towing boats, the platform for training for a breakout will necessarily shift to the simulator room, and that my friends is a poor substitute. Increasingly, the customer is looking to make his deliveries on time and in spite of weather. Neither a ship nor an ATB is weatherproof, we know the ATB is better suited to rough weather than a conventional tug (crew comfort and the ability to move a barge without being strung out over a third of a mile) but the ATB has limitations that we are learning about every day. The prudent mariner will set his or her own limit based on their experience and training. An unlimited license will not disaster proof anything, just ask Captain Schettino…
As usual, money talks, bullshit walks. And the ‘Ship’ crowd is pissed that us lowly tugboats have usurped their holiness!
For the design I’m on (single mode ATB)
. Redirect Notice As to what I have seen there are only two types of ITB’s. Single Mode ( Push only). And Dual Mode (push ‘till it hurts, then pull it;-). This mode is called ATB.
I do believe you are on a ’ Dual mode ITB’ that has the acronym ATB attached to it for clarity. The only distinction I have read about is a single mode ITB which is… an ITB.
An unlimited license will not disaster proof anything, just ask Captain Schettino…
Unless of course you ask a holder of an unlimited license (or one of the academy professors who are trying to boost enrollment.)
10 years or so ago, our ATB ops were so successful that many product tankers were retired befored they OPA90ed out. The result was a batch of displaced masters and chief mates working as vettors with a perpetual hard-on for us ATB guys. They tried to hold this batch of ATBs to a SIRE vetting. Being uninspected and SOLAS was a turd in the punch bowl. It finally leveled out.
This is a little off-topic from where this thread has gone but I wanted to answer something that was brought up a couple times a little while back. I was just cruising around the ole’ interwebs here when I happened across the “Ocean Tug/Barge” company website. They seem to have designed and/or built a very large portion of most of the modern/purpose-built ATBs out there. Below is a link to a new design project they’re working on. It’s a decent glimpse at this new idea of an ATB/OSV (the idea that was brought up earlier in the thread). Anyway, make of it what you will…
Do any current ATBs actually do “drop and swap”? All the ones I have observed are married to their one barge.
Their idea of crew savings is bullshit, at least where I work. Our crews are mandated by the client, in excess of the COI.
I wonder what the majors will say when someone tries to bring one of those on contract. I don’t think they will be very thrilled with the idea…
Depends on the size of the units. The larger barges are majority if not all of the time married but the smaller bunker barges that say Ksea now Kirby runs are interchangeable they are also not using Intercon on the smaller barges that I have worked on over there…