If Abdon Callais builds an ATB you can bet it will be under a 100 tons.
Has this ATB TOAR really come into effect?
If so, how does it affect people who already have regular TOAR’s and work on an ATB?
As if now, when you renew your TOAR they don’t care what kind of unit you work on, they just want a letter stating you participant in safety training and drills.
[QUOTE=Lost@sea;88773]Has this ATB TOAR really come into effect?
If so, how does it affect people who already have regular TOAR’s and work on an ATB?
As if now, when you renew your TOAR they don’t care what kind of unit you work on, they just want a letter stating you participant in safety training and drills.[/QUOTE]
Unless things have changed, the ATB TOAR is company specfic. A regular TOAR covers ATBs.
[QUOTE=scengineer;88720]As someone who sailed ATBs and blue water ships, the complexity of the are completely different. The ATB plants are smaller and less complicated. Now, I am in no way shape or form knocking those guys and what they do. Some of the guys I sailed with in ATBs are great engineers. What I would like to see is 3 mates, one Captain, two Tankerman PIC, two ABs, one OS, and 3 engineers, and one steward. From what I saw, the Tankermen where getting very minimal rest with changing their watch schedule all the time. Plus an ice cream social makes a better engineer…duh[/QUOTE]
Back in the dark ages when I was Chief on the SEA SKIMMER/PLAQUEMINE, we actually ran a similar crew, except that we only had two mates to work with the Master. Oh, and we called our Steward a cook. Overall, it worked pretty well. It still meant long days for me, working on repairs/project, etc. outside of the 8-12, but I was young and energetic back then. The personnel that were sent to us by the office were a mixed bag when it came to competency. The Scottish ship management company that operated the unit didn’t really understand the US licensing scheme back then (not sure if anyone really did). Many of the hands we got were off of supply boats, and only a few of them were able to fit in with the working requirements. That said, I did get a couple of deep sea assistan engineers that weren’t worth much, either. I found that background really only made up half of what made a good hand. Interest and enthusiasm and attention to detail and a willingness to learn (and put up with me) wwnt a lot further than any education or previous employ . . . . .Oh, probably the worst hire was an inland tankerman who had never been away from home for very long. He “quit” several times between the east coast and Panama, only to give up and fly home from Ecuador. . . .
[QUOTE=Lost@sea;88773]Has this ATB TOAR really come into effect?
If so, how does it affect people who already have regular TOAR’s and work on an ATB?
As if now, when you renew your TOAR they don’t care what kind of unit you work on, they just want a letter stating you participant in safety training and drills.[/QUOTE]
Crowley was the first company to have a ATB specific TOAR. Other companies have morphed a TOAR into something similar. A conventional TOAR is ‘better’ than an ATB TOAR. A conventional TOAR allows you to work on either type. A ATB TOAR only allows you to work on a ATB. (And I am not sure, but I think it only applies to the company who you GOT an ATB TOAR on too!)
This is part of the 30 day wonder rule. A new hire (with higher than a 200 GT license) can serve for 30 days on an ATB and get his ATB TOAR signed off, and stand a wheelwatch. I have NO idea how someone can be judged to be competent on all evolutions on even an ATB tour in 30 days, but That is another subject entirely.
[QUOTE=injunear;88737]Was that an ATB specific TOAR?[/QUOTE] I’m not exactly sure. I put the paperwork in the mail already. thee were at least two pages that were marked “this page intentionally left blank”. Maybe that was the part for regular tugboats?
And believe me tugboat guys, I know for a fact that I am NOT a tugboater. Hats off to you guys. And Happy thanksgiving everyone!
Where I am at, the mates and captain have unlimitedl licenses as do all of us engineers. The idea behind the ATB is also to have more shore based maintenance at least thats what the office told us. Honestly the large ATB has not lived up to the hype. Sure we have reduced crew compared to a product tanker. Deck maintenance suffers but company says it will be done in the yard. I’d say these new tugs running heavy fuel with advanced electronically controlled engines and high degree of automation os not for everyone. The engineers myself included all came from product tankers that ran heavy fuel and associated equipment. We have a high degree of self reliance which sometimes clashes with the offices idea of shore based maintenance. There in itself where is the cost saving if everytime you break down, you have to go out of service to fix the problem, where as on a comparitively sized product tanker, you are equiped to do the repairs yourself. Not to mention the fuel savings and greater speed of a product tanker. It is a good discussion to say the least. ATB’s have their place, but I firmly believe the economics and efficiency of scaling up do not work over 250,000 bbl.
There already are 100 ton officers on ATBs the license required is master or mate of towing vessels. Which can be added to a 100 ton ticket.
The tonnage of the vessel is only a factor if she ships international or has a domestic route outside the boundary line.
[QUOTE=silverbk;88987]There already are 100 ton officers on ATBs the license required is master or mate of towing vessels. Which can be added to a 100 ton ticket.
The tonnage of the vessel is only a factor if she ships international or has a domestic route outside the boundary line.[/QUOTE]
I’ve never seen an ATB less than 100 ton. Can you enlighten us as to which ones?
Same here, who has 100 ton licensed wheelhouse on ATBs? It’s a minimum of 1600 ton Master and Master of Towing Oceans here and Engineers have to be over 6000 H.P.
The license required to stand a watch on an uninspected towing vessel is “mate or master of towing vessels” Any references to tonnage are for international or outside the boundary line.
Any 1600 ton requirement is a company policy, most companies will require a 1600 ton or greater license.
With that being said, I have seen mariners with 100 ton licenses, who are also endorsed for “mate or master of towing vessels” in the wheelhouse of uninspected towing vessels that are over 200 tons GRT. If you go past the boundary line you need to have the inspected tonnage on your license. If you go international you will need the ITC tonnage of the vessel on your license.
I’ve sailed on several ATBs that were just under 300grt and uninspected. They required a 500 ton master w/towing or ATB TOAR minimum.
The company required 1600 ton
That is correct that inside the boundary line (I.E Inland waters) there typically is no tonnage restriction for a Master or Mate of towing vessel license depending on the individual’s qualifying service for that license. However most large ATBs don’t operate exclusively on Inland waters except for some of the NY/NJ, Delaware River and Chesapeake converted ATBs. I am pretty sure the newer purpose built ATBs that are replacing product tankers, bulk ships etc. routinely have routes outside the boundary line and therefore fall under this regulation illustrated in the FAQs of NVIC 4-01. “a towing vessel of 200 GRT or over, beyond the boundary line, must be operated by an officer holding a license as master or mate of inspected self-propelled vessels of appropriate tonnage, with the master or mate (pilot) of towing vessels endorsement, or hold a completed TOAR”.
[QUOTE=silverbk;88992]The license required to stand a watch on an uninspected towing vessel is “mate or master of towing vessels” Any references to tonnage are for international or outside the boundary line.
Any 1600 ton requirement is a company policy, most companies will require a 1600 ton or greater license.
With that being said, I have seen mariners with 100 ton licenses, who are also endorsed for “mate or master of towing vessels” in the wheelhouse of uninspected towing vessels that are over 200 tons GRT. If you go past the boundary line you need to have the inspected tonnage on your license. If you go international you will need the ITC tonnage of the vessel on your license.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly correct! I hold a 100 Ton Master of Towing Vessels Upon Inland Waters, tonnage restrictions due apply. Those who have the Master of Towing Vessels without a tonnage limitation have a higher level license and it’s unlimited tonnage.
From NVIC 4-01:
g. Are there tonnage restrictions on the towing vessel license?
(1) In general no; however, some officers’ licenses converted under grandfathering may have tonnage limitations included. Such tonnage limitations would be removed when the officer meets the examination and experience requirements of 46 CFR 10.210.
(2) You may not use the license as master or mate of towing vessels on inspected vessels, regardless of tonnage. In addition, a towing vessel of 200 GRT or over, beyond the boundary line, must be operated by an officer holding a license as master or mate of inspected self-propelled vessels of appropriate tonnage, with the master or mate (pilot) of towing vessels endorsement, or hold a completed TOAR
(3) You must hold a valid STCW certificate if you serve on a seagoing towing vessel 200 GRT or more, or on any towing vessel operating on international voyages.
[QUOTE=silverbk;88987]There already are 100 ton officers on ATBs the license required is master or mate of towing vessels. Which can be added to a 100 ton ticket.
The tonnage of the vessel is only a factor if she ships international or has a domestic route outside the boundary line.[/QUOTE]
“Mate of Towing Vessels” and “Master of Towing Vessels” are separate licenses, they aren’t endorsements “added” to another license. The mate/master towing license is valid for towin vessels uop to 300 GRT near coastal and oceans and of any tonnage inland and western rivers.
[QUOTE=ForkandBlade;88997]Not exactly correct! I hold a 100 Ton Master of Towing Vessels Upon Inland Waters, tonnage restrictions due apply. Those who have the Master of Towing Vessels without a tonnage limitation have a higher level license and it’s unlimited tonnage.[/QUOTE]
The 100 ton limitation on your master of towing vessels license is probably due to having been grandfathered from a pre-2001 license that was only valid for 100 tonss. Yopu can remove that limita t any time by taking the Apprentice Mate (Steersman) exam for the ap[propriate route(s). There are a bunch of mariners with a 100 ton limit on mate or master of towing vessels as they were grandfathered from a license that was only valid for 100 GRT, there are almost no tonnage limts on towing license for any other reason.
Has anyone used combined tonnage on an atb for an unlimited license upgrade?
Here is a link that I have discovered while researching this topic. If anything is incorrect or outdated please advise:
Everything depends primarily on the [B]route[/B] upon which the [B]vessel[/B] actually serves. A license as [I]Apprentice Mate[/I], [I]Mate[/I] or [I]Master of Towing Vessels[/I] (endorsed for either [I]Near Coastal[/I] or [I]Oceans[/I] routes) entitles the holder to serve aboard towing vessels of [B]less[/B] than 200 gross register tons (GRT), as measured by the U.S. domestic tonnage system, engaged in either near coastal (up to [B]200[/B] nautical miles from shore) or oceans (beyond 200 nautical miles from shore) voyages. Ours is a ridiculous measurement system, in and of itself, but it’s the one we’ve got for now and that’s a subject for another post. In any case, the [B]maximum[/B] tonnage of [B]any[/B] towing vessel that can be operated upon [I][B]Near Coastal[/B][/I] or [I][B]Oceans[/B][/I] routes (with the [I]Near Coastal[/I] or [I]Oceans[/I] towing licenses) is [B]199.99 GRT[/B], period. What about towing vessels of 200 GRT and [B]greater[/B] operating upon [I]Near Coastal[/I] or [I]Oceans[/I] routes? To operate them you must have an [U][B]inspected vessel[/B][/U] license of sufficient tonnage to cover the specific vessel (500 GRT, 1,600 GRT or unlimited) along with a [I][B][U]towing vessel endorsement[/U][/B][/I] on the license [B]or[/B] a completed [I][B][U]Towing Officers Assessment Record[/U][/B][/I] (TOAR) signed by a CG-qualified towing vessel designated examiner (T/V DE). This is a simple [B]either/or[/B] equation: if you have the completed TOAR in your possession you don’t need the endorsement on your license and if you have the endorsement on your license then you don’t have to carry around a completed TOAR. ¿Comprénde? Once you shift to the [I]Great Lakes[/I],[I] Inland[/I] and [I]Western Rivers[/I] routes the picture changes significantly. On these the [I]Apprentice Mate/Steersman[/I], [I]Mate/Pilot[/I] and [I]Master of Towing Vessels[/I] licenses have [B]no[/B] tonnage limitation. How can this be? You may have noticed that [B]none[/B] of the towing vessel licenses (regardless of which route is endorsed upon them) indicate a tonnage restriction. That’s because, strictly speaking, our domestic regulations don’t and never did call for one. So if there isn’t a tonnage restriction printed on the license and it doesn’t call for one in the domestic regulations then why the 200 GRT limit for towing vessels operating on [I]Near Coastal[/I]/[I]Oceans[/I] routes and not for [I]Great Lakes/Inland/Western Rivers[/I] routes? The law that the [I]Near Coastal/Oceans[/I] route tonnage limit is derived from, called the [I][B]Officers Competency Certificates Convention of 1936[/B] (aka the Officers Competency Act),[/I] is located in the U.S. Code at [I][B]46 USC § 8304[/B][/I], while the implementing regulations are at [B]46 CFR § 15.701[/B]. It stipulates that [I]“[/I][I]A person may not engage or employ an individual to serve as, and an individual may not serve as, a master, mate, or engineer on a vessel to which this section applies, if the individual does not have a license [B]issued under section [/B][/I][I][B]7101[/B][/I][I][B] of this title[/B] authorizing service in the capacity in which the individual is to be engaged or employed.” [/I]With a few exceptions, this section applies to all [B]documented vessels[/B] of [B]200GRT[/B] or [B]greater[/B] operating on the [B]high seas[/B], including [B]towing vessels[/B]. In this case the [B][I]High Seas[/I][/B] are defined as waters seaward of the [B][I]Boundary Lines[/I][/B], which are, as per [B]46 CFR § 7.5©[/B], [I]“lines drawn following the general trend of the seaward, highwater shorelines across entrances to small bays, rivers and inlets.”[/I] The exact location of all boundary lines can be found in [B][I]46 CFR § 7.10 through 7.180[/I][/B]. As it happens, our towing licenses are [B]not[/B] issued under section 7101 of Title 46 of the United States Code. So if you want to operate a towing vessel of 200GRT and up on the high seas then you must have a license that [B]is[/B] issued under section 7101, which are the 500/1,600GRT and unlimited tonnage licenses. Simple, eh? So the commonly expressed misconception that there’s some magical 300GRT towing license has no basis in regulatory fact. If you have a towing license, and only a towing license, then on [B]near coastal[/B] or [B]oceans[/B] voyages you are restricted to vessels of [B]less[/B] than [B]200GRT[/B]. On any of the other routes there is [B]no[/B] tonnage limit. In the end it’s pretty cut and dried, but the regulations could damn sure use a major rewrite and reorganization so that we could find and understand all the relevant parts without spending hours sifting through the U.S. Code, CFR’s, NVIC’s, CG policy letters and so on. What a pain in the ass!
[QUOTE=jdcavo;89007]“Mate of Towing Vessels” and “Master of Towing Vessels” are separate licenses, they aren’t endorsements “added” to another license. The mate/master towing license is valid for towin vessels uop to 300 GRT near coastal and oceans and of any tonnage inland and western rivers.[/QUOTE]
Sir I would like to clarify this to prevent any misunderstanding on my part:
I presently hold a mate 1600 tons, near coastal I have in my possession a signed TOAR. As I understand it this allows me to be in charge of a navigational watch aboard uninspected towing vessels, including ATBs.
If I wish to add this to credential I would be applying for an endorsement as “mate of towing vessels” per § 46 cfr 11.465
While I concur that this a license in all respects, it is referred to in the CFR as an endorsement.