Can you Renew early and Upgrade your License on the same CG Application?

I just acquired the sea time to upgrade my Third Mate AGT to Second Mate AGT and my Renewal is coming up in March 2014…five months from now…
Does anyone know if the CG allows upgrading and renewing on the same application? If not the option I see is to upgrade first and then renew when the time for renewal is at hand.
Another question: I have heard that if you don’t acquire 90 days sea time in 5 years on your Master of Towing license that the CG won’t renew it. Does anyone know if there is any truth the that or how to get around it?
:confused::confused::confused:

Don’t know the answer to the towing question but I just upgraded and now my license expires 5 years from the day my upgrade was issued

Thanks dogfish, I just sent you a private message. For all others, the questions stands…

Yes you can and should renew when applying for an upgrade. I just added some endorsements and renewed on the same application even though my MMC didn’t expire until 2015. Now I’m good till 2018 and I didn’t have to pay the application fee twice.

[QUOTE=stevefoster;119844]I just acquired the sea time to upgrade my Third Mate AGT to Second Mate AGT and my Renewal is coming up in March 2014…five months from now…
Does anyone know if the CG allows upgrading and renewing on the same application? If not the option I see is to upgrade first and then renew when the time for renewal is at hand.
Another question: I have heard that if you don’t acquire 90 days sea time in 5 years on your Master of Towing license that the CG won’t renew it. Does anyone know if there is any truth the that or how to get around it?
:confused::confused::confused:[/QUOTE]

You not only can, you should. If you don’t renew everything you have when you upgrade, your new license or endorsement will be a sticker to add to your existing MMC, that means the expiration date stays the same.

For renewal of towing license, per 46 CFR 10.227(d)(8)(vi)(B) you need to show “Ongoing participation in training and drills during the validity of the license or MMC being renewed” (not 90 days…)

no reason NMC shouldn’t give you new license/STCW for 5 yrs when you upgrade. but, they have been known to be that blind.

HOWEVER more important issue is RADAR OBSEREVER will only be good for 5 yrs from original or most recent renewal. and your red book will not have the radar obs expiration date. some RECs (yrs ago) would just extend your radar with first upgrade to new license expiry. i’m pretty sure that was actually in CFRs but it depended on how old your first radar obs. cert was. your radar cert must go with your license, unless they have finally sorted out that lack of info on MMC.

towing endorsement is quite likely true. recently sailed with former crowley/foss west coast now working deep sea who hadn’t worked tow boats in yrs. when he renewed his deep sea license, the Seattle REC required him to attend some kind of simulator for towing in lieu of sea time in order to retain MOT. my tankerman PIC can be renewed with a certain amount of loads/discharges, 90 days tanker time as PIC, or class in lieu of sea days.

as you are clearly upgrading in the unlimited category, you would be well served to take VSO class and get endorsement if you haven’t already. if you haven’t, bite the bullet and take the class and forget that ridiculuous VPDSD crap.

also, ECDIS will be on all our licenses i believe by 2016. i’m sure your class was accredited, so if you can go ahead and get that on your license.

cover the bases of basic/adv firefighting as well as BST and see if you can get those on your new MMC and you’ll have that much less to deal with down the road.

in light of jdcavo post that went up before i finished mine, my guess is that my friend’s mandated simulator towing class was part of that “ongoing training.”

spend some time on NMC/USCG website looking at forms as well as NMC policy letters. i’m sure it’s there.

here is a question for you? how long has MOT endorsement been around? i seem to recall it being created w/i last 10-15yrs, or was that just new reqs for renewing?

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;119873]HOWEVER more important issue is RADAR OBSEREVER will only be good for 5 yrs from original or most recent renewal. and your red book will not have the radar obs expiration date. some RECs (yrs ago) would just extend your radar with first upgrade to new license expiry. i’m pretty sure that was actually in CFRs but it depended on how old your first radar obs. cert was. your radar cert must go with your license, unless they have finally sorted out that lack of info on MMC.[/QUOTE]

It was in the CFR. It was available on request, and only once. The provision was removed with the same rteg change that eliminated the radar expiration date. When you renew you need to show it’s current (i.e. course in the past five years) when the MMC is issued, or you won’t get the endorsement in the MMC and you will not be valid for radar, even if you take a course, until you get it added back. The relatively recent change only eliminated putting an expiration date on the MMC, it didn’t replace or change the requirement to have the endorsement.

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;119873]towing endorsement is quite likely true. recently sailed with former crowley/foss west coast now working deep sea who hadn’t worked tow boats in yrs. when he renewed his deep sea license, the Seattle REC required him to attend some kind of simulator for towing in lieu of sea time in order to retain MOT. [/QUOTE]

It is true, I gave you the cite, look it up if you’re not sure. Taking a simulator or a minimum time on a towing vessel was never in regulation. This type of creative interpretation is one of the reasons RECs no longer evaluate applications. If this happened in the past 5 years, the REC was definitely out of line, that was a substantive evaluation/determination of they type they should not be making.

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;119873]also, ECDIS will be on all our licenses i believe by 2016. i’m sure your class was accredited, so if you can go ahead and get that on your license.[/QUOTE]

You have it backwards. If you don’t have ECDIS, you will get a limitation saying not valid for ECDIS (after December 31, 2016). If you are good for ECDIS, there will be no mention of ECDIS on your STCW endorsement (just like ARPA). Note that it took about a year before we put that “not valid…” restriction on MMCs, so if your MMC was issued between 1/1/2012 and about 1/1/2013 and you don’t have ECDIS training, your MMC might not have the not valid for ECDIS after 12/31/2016 limitation. The Coast Guard has been approving ECDIS courses since at least 2000, even though there was not a requirement to have it at the time. If the course was approved in the past, it will be acceptable for any new ECDIS requirement. If the course was never approved by the Coast Guard (for any reason) it won’t be accepted to meet the new STCW requirement.

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;119873]here is a question for you? how long has MOT endorsement been around? i seem to recall it being created w/i last 10-15yrs, or was that just new reqs for renewing?[/QUOTE]
Since May 21, 2001. Anyone with previous experience was grandfathered, and was supposed to have had the new MOT endorsement at the first renewal that happened after that date. That was widely waived and grandfathering to the new license was allowed on the second renewal because many RECs did an awful job informing mariners they needed the new license, i.e.mariners renew their Master 500 license with service letters from XYZ Towing Company so that it is obvious they work on towing vessels, yet no one bothered to tell them that they needed the new license, they just gave him or her what they had before.

The regulations for renewing have been unchanged since the regs creating the endorsement.

[QUOTE=jdcavo;119888]
It is true, I gave you the cite, look it up if you’re not sure. Taking a simulator or a minimum time on a towing vessel was never in regulation. This type of creative interpretation is one of the reasons RECs no longer evaluate applications. If this happened in the past 5 years, the REC was definitely out of line, that was a substantive evaluation/determination of they type they should not be making. [/QUOTE]

it was w/i last few yrs.

[/QUOTE]You have it backwards. If you don’t have ECDIS, you will get a limitation saying not valid for ECDIS (after December 31, 2016). If you are good for ECDIS, there will be no mention of ECDIS on your STCW endorsement (just like ARPA). Note that it took about a year before we put that “not valid…” restriction on MMCs, so if your MMC was issued between 1/1/2012 and about 1/1/2013 and you don’t have ECDIS training, your MMC might not have the not valid for ECDIS after 12/31/2016 limitation. The Coast Guard has been approving ECDIS courses since at least 2000, even though there was not a requirement to have it at the time. If the course was approved in the past, it will be acceptable for any new ECDIS requirement. If the course was never approved by the Coast Guard (for any reason) it won’t be accepted to meet the new STCW requirement. [/QUOTE]

thanks for clarification. burden of proof still on us mariners, for me in Aug 2016.

[/QUOTE]Since May 21, 2001. Anyone with previous experience was grandfathered, and was supposed to have had the new MOT endorsement at the first renewal that happened after that date. That was widely waived and grandfathering to the new license was allowed on the second renewal because many RECs did an awful job informing mariners they needed the new license, i.e.mariners renew their Master 500 license with service letters from XYZ Towing Company so that it is obvious they work on towing vessels, yet no one bothered to tell them that they needed the new license, they just gave him or her what they had before. [/QUOTE]

RECs doing an awful job on anything? NO! NEVER!!!. new system with the great sea-faring state of W. Va in charge is monumental improvement form my previous experiences at NY, NOLA, CHAS, and MEMPHIS RECs for everything from upgrade testing, adding endorsements, fingerprinting, and replacing a lost Z-card. And that includes dealing with NMC personnel in D.C.; they were also problematic.

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;119891]…And that includes dealing with NMC personnel in D.C.; they were also problematic.[/QUOTE]

NMC has never been in DC. When I started there in '97, it was in Arlington, VA. I was the last to leave Arlington in Fall '08. Unless you mean ex-NMC types now in DC. Those guys are real @#$%^s.

[QUOTE=jdcavo;119925]NMC has never been in DC. When I started there in '97, it was in Arlington, VA. I was the last to leave Arlington in Fall '08. Unless you mean ex-NMC types now in DC. [B]Those guys are real @#$%^s.[/B][/QUOTE]

Now that is too funny Mr. Cavo!

[QUOTE=jdcavo;119925]NMC has never been in DC. When I started there in '97, it was in Arlington, VA. I was the last to leave Arlington in Fall '08. Unless you mean ex-NMC types now in DC. Those guys are real @#$%^s.[/QUOTE]

DC, Arlington, whatever, we’re still on same page. I dealt with someone in DEC 2006 who was major league a-hole.

it wasn’t you. that i’m sure of.

for what’s it’s worth, if only 20% of the USCG RECs staff was guys like you, the RECs wouldn’t have the reputation they most certainly earned over the years.

i truly am surprised at how efficient things are now. when i got my first red book (b/c i added VSO endorsement) in 2009 it only took about 5 weeks. when i renewed in 2011 it took about 6-8 weeks only b/c i did not send them an acceptable form of participation in drug testing program. once i gave them what they needed, moved right along.

now if we can just get TSA to pull their heads out of their a*!

[QUOTE=“jdcavo;119872”]For renewal of towing license, per 46 CFR 10.227(d)(8)(vi)(B) you need to show “Ongoing participation in training and drills during the validity of the license or MMC being renewed” (not 90 days…)[/QUOTE]

And this time does NOT need to be on towing vessels, correct?

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;120000]And this time does NOT need to be on towing vessels, correct?[/QUOTE]

The regulation does not specify what type of vessel, nor does it specify the content of the training and drills.

Perhaps there would be at least a little less confusion if the application accurately and logically reflected the credentials that are available to the mariner, ie: MMC versus MMD/License/STCW. I know that it was to be updated at the beginning of the year and has been delayed “in conjunction with pending regulatory change,” but the MMC has been around for over four years! I see a lot of guys who are understandably confused by the out of date 719B. As for the upgrade/renew, I agree that the renew should be assumed when upgrading, if appropriate. I’ve seen a few people upgrade one year before expiry who ended up with a nice new book good for one year because they didn’t check the renew boxes.

[QUOTE=“shipengr;120114”]Perhaps there would be at least a little less confusion if the application accurately and logically reflected the credentials that are available to the mariner, ie: MMC versus MMD/License/STCW. I know that it was to be updated at the beginning of the year and has been delayed “in conjunction with pending regulatory change,” but the MMC has been around for over four years! I see a lot of guys who are understandably confused by the out of date 719B. As for the upgrade/renew, I agree that the renew should be assumed when upgrading, if appropriate. I’ve seen a few people upgrade one year before expiry who ended up with a nice new book good for one year because they didn’t check the renew boxes.[/QUOTE]

Part of the reason renewal isn’t automatic is because some requirements, like the physical, are different. An upgrade requires a physical dated within 3 years, renewal requires it dated within 1 year.

Understood. I actually have had good dealings with the NMC myself lately, and I would concede that the recent website updates have made an attempt to provide a more clear path. I really would like to see the application paperwork updated appropriately though.

How long has it been taking for a renewal or upgrade lately, anyone have recent transaction with NMC?

[QUOTE=stevefoster;131975]How long has it been taking for a renewal or upgrade lately, anyone have recent transaction with NMC?[/QUOTE]

A clean application submitted on Feb 1st arrived at NMC within a week, has now cleared medical (and something else, maybe security?), and is waiting for the assignment of an evaluator. It appears that an inadequate number of evaluators is the primary bottleneck at NMC.

. I submitted my renewal in Mandeville, La. on November 25 2013 and my license was printed on December 27

[QUOTE=cml;131994]. I submitted my renewal in Mandeville, La. on November 25 2013 and my license was printed on December 27[/QUOTE]

You must have connections. There’s a guy there named Leo that moves really quick.