I would be very interested to know how Singapore does it. Someone was saying it’s significantly different from Europe’s failed model, so explain why it works.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;178198]I would be very interested to know how Singapore does it. Someone was saying it’s significantly different from Europe’s failed model, so explain why it works.[/QUOTE]
Europe has a failed model? Could you please explain? This was new information.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;178198]I would be very interested to know how Singapore does it. Someone was saying it’s significantly different from Europe’s failed model, so explain why it works.[/QUOTE]
The Singapore way of Health Care or “The Singapore way” in total?
Basically Singapore practices a “third way”, between the European Social Democracy and Welfare States and the raw Capitalism and excessive Democracy of USA in most things.
As for the Health Care System specifically, it is based on a mix of public and private services. The main stay is Medisave, which is a “forced saving” scheme that all Singaporeans and Permanent Residents has to pay into. The biggest difference is obviously that the money does not go into a big pot, but stay in an account that belongs to the individual. From there you can pay for hospitalization, but with a % to be covered by insurance, or by cash.
There is also Medishield Life, which is “private” insurance, but which is tightly controlled by the Government. One of the main insurers (Income) is controlled by the National Trade Union Congress (NTUC)but run along normal business lines, like all things in Singapore, even the Government.
Your Medisave account is automatically used to pay Medishield premium, incl. for dependents.
Medisave and/or Medishield can also be used for certain outpatient treatment, but regulated to avoid excessive and unnecessary visits to the Doctor, Public Clinics and/or A&E at the hospitals for every minor ailment.
In other words, it is not free, but subsidized services that is affordable for the majority. For those who cannot pay for various reasons, there are safety net, but again with control to avoid abuse.
For those with more detailed interest in the Singapore scene, here is an introduction to Singapore from Hawksford, a business consultant guiding companies that want to set up in Singapore: http://www.guidemesingapore.com/relocation/introduction/healthcare-in-singapore
It is not a Government site, but factually and unbiased covering a wide range of subjects incl. Health Care, Taxation, Legal system etc.
It is not political though, although there is a brief introduction to politics, but somewhat dated. If you want to know about that subject there are a lot available on the net, some real and some not.
There is a bit of a change on foot after the election last year: http://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/st-editorial/political-changes-ahead-dont-be-bochap
Western press is mostly occupied with whether Singapore is Democratic or a Dictatorship and the banning of chewing gum. That it is possible to have a functioning system without copying the West is apparently hard to swallow.
There are exceptions though. Some of the better informed commentators in the US media is great fans of our late Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew and admirers of what has been accomplished here in the last 50 years.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;178172]We cannot escape the cost of healthcare for everyone in any system. Half the US population was on some form of national healthcare BEFORE Obamacare (VA, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP, WIC, [U]government employees [/U]and retirees, …[/QUOTE]
Federal employees are not on “national health care.” They have a choice of a bunch of private sector plans to pick from, the employee pays a portion and the employer pays a portion.
[QUOTE=jdcavo;178204]Federal employees are not on “national health care.” They have a choice of a bunch of private sector plans to pick from, the employee pays a portion and the employer pays a portion.
[/QUOTE]
Well, like all things when the “employer” pays a portion (like Social Security), it really means that the employee pays that portion, too. . . because, of course, that money would have otherwise got to the employee. I like the Singapore model, sounds very similar to the HSA system here in the US, that we use at our company coupled to a high deductible policy. I do believe that there needs to be a disincentive to go seek professional medical help for the smallest of illnesses because that also raises medical costs. I also agree with the above comment about the money being spent on and by the medical insurance carriers. Remember that any time you cede your right to pay someone directly, any hands that the money then passes through will snatch some of it. . . . that means commercial insurance companies, governments. . .
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The 108 million on government healthcare does not include federal employees. They are considered employer funded covered.
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That raises an interesting point however. Since taxpayers “fund” the employer part of federal employee premiums, it is taxpayer paid. And let us not forget how reasonable the premiums are, along with the cafeteria of selections available to federal employees. 15 plans on the OPM website JD? - or perhaps more? Oh yeah, the family plan you can get closest to mine costs about $535 a month v. over $1500 a month for me. Just sayin’ someone is makin’ up the difference, and I suppose it is me and my taxpaying’ buddies. (for sake of good order, I appreciate that you and all federal employees pay taxes too)
But also, the example of the insurance coverage being tax deductible for commercial business is in effect, also taxpayer paid.
Perhaps that is the reason why the ACA implemented a Cadillac Plan tax on high value policies - that is to limit the amount the (tax deduction - taxpayer paid) subsidies for companies wishing to provide high value benefits not usually available to us ? http://www.cigna.com/health-care-reform/cadillac-tax Can’t say the limits indicated are exactly high - given the way premiums are already headed.
- Now an example of something that should be outlawed - period. If you go for a day surgery procedure, you will be asked to sign all manner of forms indicating you will personally pay the bills, should the insurance company declines to pay. So let’s say your insurance pays all (100%) for that particular procedure. They do not settle on the $10,000 face value of the invoice - they settle on a negotiated amount, now indicated to you as an “adjustment” So let’s say $10,000 is settled by insurance with an “adjustment” of $2500. That money changes hands (allegedly), and the invoice is closed.
But if you or I end up being a “cash” customer because we do not have coverage for that procedure, we will be charged the full $10,000, without mercy, and even if we pay cash money dollar bills on the day, on the spot. THIS multi-tier pricing scam is used to literally screw millions of people into bankruptcy, and it is real.
- Now for another scam. You have insurance. Lets say 80% covered / 20% copay. Same $10k procedure. You think you have to pay a $2000 share. But the insurance company thinks the “usual, customary & reasonable” cost should be $6000, not $10,000. They and that particular doctor owned day surgery centre are not so agreeable on the “adjustments”. So the insurance sends a check for 0.80 x $6000 = $4800. Guess who gets the bill for the remaining $5200?
Yeah. Welcome to real life in A’murca. Hope you got that money saved up, because last time I was in the hospital in the USA, it was $27,000 for an overnight. It was settled by the insurance for an “adjustment” of $3000, and I chipped in about $2000. If’n I had no insurance, I would have been on the hook for the full $27k - period.
And why should all Americans care about these scams and situations.
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It is immoral to exclude persons from needed healthcare on economic reasons alone. If people have no money in the bank because they just got laid off, it forces them to decide between health care / health insurance or eating. Everything in the world may be available, but if you are too poor to afford a doctor visit, you are not going to go, or you will scrimp when that pain in the back is actually cancer, not the muscle strain you were hoping it was. You die. Self-selected by your own “death panel” also known as your thin wallet. Yeah - that’s morality at work for ya.
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The rise in healthcare costs due to the medical-industrial-insurance complex (if you will), is [U]transferring money[/U] from the middle class to others, namely the investors in health care industry, and as we can see, it is doing so at an ever increasing rate. Slowly, surely, your cash flow / savings are being eaten away by the actuarially driven premiums, or the increased deductibles / copays or the flat out cash costs. Today about 17% of all the money spent in the US is spent on one activity alone (medical care), when instead, a lot of it could have been productively spent elsewhere.
How much will be enough? 20% of all the money spent in the US ? 30%? 40%? It is a seriously big problem and someone (a few percent of the population) is skimming the cream while we are being pushed lower and lower and lower.
Yeah - I got no problem with them skimming the cream. As long as we the 90% paying the freight, get to actually have some of the milk and decide how much cream we can give away for basically, a profit made only on our ability to enjoy a healthy life. Pretty basic stuff.
So you pay more and more and more and more, with literally no end in sight. Copays, deductibles, not covered, you name the scam. So eventually, even the best off among us, have to choose between health care and eating.
We “little people” that are over 90% of all people in the US, actually are allowing this to happen to us because we do not insist on real solutions, but rather want to fight to the death over straw man diversionary issues like states rights, the War on Christmas and Obama Care.
What is the matter with you ? It’s like the boat is on fire and you’re squabbling over who forgot to post the latest compass deviation card. How about getting the fire pump on line and suiting up the fire teams and working together to put out the damned fire?
No - we gotta deal with some ninnies shouting insults and trying to get leadership jobs in the government they denigrate and apparently despise. Unless it involves that Congressional health care plan and 6 year service vested lifetime retirement package. Then the guvvermin’t is just fine, but don’t talk about that.
And if you want to see another industry trying to scam [U]us[/U] look at the providers of internet bandwidth. You want high speed. Sign here for 200 channels and phone service at $179 a month, and suddenly that 25 Mbps that was “unavailable at any price” just happens to exist right in front of your house from 2 or more providers. Amazing that. Your money, slowly being siphoned away at $179 a month to hedge fund investors.
Pie in the sky revolutionary thinking? Hardly my friends. Hardly at all. It is just taking some time to think about what is really happening here today.
Don’t worry, it’ll be to the barricades soon enough, and with about 320 million guns at hand, it’s gonna be a real Party. Tea or Not.
[QUOTE=+A465B;178211]And why should all Americans care about these scams and situations.
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It is immoral to exclude persons from needed healthcare on economic reasons alone. If people have no money in the bank because they just got laid off, it forces them to decide between health care / health insurance or eating. Everything in the world may be available, but if you are too poor to afford a doctor visit, you are not going to go, or you will scrimp when that pain in the back is actually cancer, not the muscle strain you were hoping it was. You die. Self-selected by your own “death panel” also known as your thin wallet. Yeah - that’s morality at work for ya.
-
The rise in healthcare costs due to the medical-industrial-insurance complex (if you will), is [U]transferring money[/U] from the middle class to others, namely the investors in health care industry, and as we can see, it is doing so at an ever increasing rate. Slowly, surely, your cash flow / savings are being eaten away by the actuarially driven premiums, or the increased deductibles / copays or the flat out cash costs. Today about 17% or all the money spent in the US is spent on one activity alone (medical care), when instead of being wasted, it could have been spent elsewhere. How much will be enough? 20% of all the money spent in the US ? 30%? 40%? It is a seriously big problem and someone (a few percent of the population) is skimming the cream while we are being pushed lower and lower and lower. Yeah - I got no problem with them skimming the cream. As long as we the 90% paying the freight, get to actually have some of the milk and decide how much cream we can give away for basically, our ability to enjoy a healthy life. Pretty basic stuff.
So you pay more and more and more and more, with literally no end in sight. Copays, deductibles, not covered, you name the scam. So eventually, even the best off among us, have to choose between health care and eating. We “little people” that are over 90% of all people in the US, actually are allowing this to happen to us because we do not insist on real solutions, but rather want to fight to the death over straw man diversionary issues like states rights, the War on Christmas and Obama Care. What is the matter with you ? It’s like the boat is on fire and you’re squabbling over who forgot to post the latest compass deviation card. How about getting the fire pump on line and suiting up the fire teams and working together to put out the damned fire?
No - we gotta deal with some ninnies shouting insults and trying to get leadership jobs in the government they denigrate and apparently despise. Unless it involves that Congressional health care plan and 6 year service vested lifetime retirement package. Then the guvvermin’t is just fine, but don’t talk about that.
And if you want to see another industry trying to scam [U]us[/U] look at the providers of internet bandwidth. You want high speed. Sign here for 200 channels and phone service at $179 a month, and suddenly that 25 Mbps that was “unavailable at any price” just happens to exist right in front of your house from 2 or more providers. Amazing that. Your money, slowly being siphoned away at $179 a month to hedge fund investors.
Pie in the sky revolutionary thinking? Hardly my friends. Hardly at all. It is just taking some time to think about what is really happening here today.
Don’t worry, it’ll be to the barricades soon enough, and with about 320 million guns at hand, it’s gonna be a real Party. Tea or Not.[/QUOTE]
50% of Iowa Democrats seems to agree with you. Bernie will fix it, Moran tugs or not.
[QUOTE=ombugge;178213]50% of Iowa Democrats seems to agree with you. Bernie will fix it, Moran tugs or not.[/QUOTE]
Well, I’m not sure that is the solution Ombugge. Seems we can’t have the engine department fighting the fire while the deck department is putting the ship broadside to the seas and the subcontractors are running around yelling and pointing in different directions and the catering staff is launching the lifeboat without any orders to abandon ship.
The problem is too big, too widespread and too serious to put it all in the hand of one branch of our government. Doesn’t work that way here.
Everyone needs to come up with a meaningful plan, not just revert back to States Rights, Christian conservative issues or left wing Pie in The Sky.
People need to realize what is really truly going on, slowly, insidiously. What is really eating away at their income, savings and quality of life for themselves and their kids. ObamaCare? Hardly. Try the for profit medical and pharmaceutical companies that are charging the obscene costs that have to be covered by that insurance… or your pocket.
Then the people need to say as one voice - “[I]We have had enough partisan playtime. We need reasoned solutions for as many people as we can possibly arrange for. Never mind what your super pac says. Now get to work.[/I]”
But alas, the state of A’murcan politics has been poisoned pretty deeply by divisionary tactics that have emerged in the past 15 years. Typically by right and left wing multimillionaire talking heads / networks - that spoon feed us thoughts, instead of stating what the real issues are and thinking of good solutions for little people.
Not to mention the emergence of special interest groups that can donate a BILLION dollars to support their preferred candidate, never disclosing who their funders are… Thimk about the influence of that my friends. [I]Hey, make it my way, and you know, we’ll make sure your seat is safe, and after you secure that there guvvermint pension and ease out of town, we’ll let you in on a little $50 million side deal to ensure your family never has to work again.[/I] If you don’t see it my way, [I]Well, we will fund a “more compliant” challenger, and send you packing. You pick Mr. Congressman.[/I]
What was that old saying?, [I]“A man’s ability to understand something depends on how much his paycheck depends on not understanding it”[/I] But hey, nowadays, I ain’t no scientist man…
Yeah, that is where we are at in the USA today. Both sides.
Remember the Rush Limbaughs of the world talk a nice game, but their view is colored by the $100 million+ they earned talking smack. To be honest, his ilk, and those in Congress, couldn’t be fussed at all with our $1500 a month insurance premiums or if you get a $300k hospital bill because your kid got leukemia. Not their worry, and that’s the fact.
[QUOTE=Kraken;178200]Europe has a failed model? Could you please explain? This was new information.[/QUOTE]
The reports I’ve heard from most countries with socialized health care is that it is unsustainable. I’d consider that a failed model when you can’t afford to pay for it indefinitely.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;178218]The reports I’ve heard from most countries with socialized health care is that it is unsustainable. I’d consider that a failed model when you can’t afford to pay for it indefinitely.[/QUOTE]
It is going to be unsustainable there, and it is unsustainable here already… We cannot as a nation spend one dollar in five, or one dollar in three, to pay medical bills. It takes the money from the majority of people, and sends it to those that control the service. Your health.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;178218]The reports I’ve heard from most countries with socialized health care is that it is unsustainable. I’d consider that a failed model when you can’t afford to pay for it indefinitely.[/QUOTE]
Probably an issue in countries that actually run by the laws of finance, but this America and 19 trillion in debt, whats the harm in spending more for healthcare? Gonna need a healthy populace when they have to work to 80 for social security benefits cause that doggone trickle down effect still hasn’t kicked in for job and wage growth, but if we just give it one more try…failed model indeed…
I think a sizable part of any national health care scheme has to be devoted to preventive care and education. We have millions of Americans who are afflicted by what physicians call, “diseases of lifestyle.” Examples are Type 2 diabetes, smoking-acquired lung ailments, liver and pancreatic diseases brought on by obesity, drug, and alcohol abuse. The newest generation of kids growing up right now have a shorter projected lifespan than their parents. It costs a lot less to try and head these problems off at the pass before they become expensive and repeated hospitalizations.
The original version:
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
A consistent truism for the ages, I think, and you can apply it well beyond just how an individual makes a living. Pretty much anything that is perceived to be a right, or a benefit (earned or not), or a part of personal, professional, religious, cultural or national identity falls under this principle.
Attempts to point it out almost always result in some combination of anger and the general discomfort associated with cognitive dissonance.
Here is another “report” which gives a different view. Written by an American, but based on actual knowledge and experience of living in a country with that “failed model”: http://www.thenation.com/article/after-i-lived-in-norway-america-felt-backward-heres-why/
This statement at the end of the article is a case in point
This little summary just scratches the surface of Scandinavia, so I urge curious readers to Google away. But be forewarned: You’ll find much criticism of all the Nordic-model countries. Worse, neoliberal pundits, especially the Brits, are always beating up on the Scandinavians, predicting the imminent demise of their social democracies. Self-styled experts still in thrall to Margaret Thatcher tell Norwegians they must liberalize their economy and privatize everything short of the royal palace. Mostly, the Norwegian government does the opposite—or nothing at all—and social democracy keeps on ticking.