Your students would get more of the same if I taught them to fly. You start with the basics and then add equipment once they can navigate with their eyes.
Back when I taught sailing as a full time job, this was how we sailed, GPS was in the future and none of the school boats had LORAN.
Now of course I get the “teach a doctor to use a voodoo doll” issue mentioned above, GPS and a perfect map on your phone has always existed, always will exist, and all these old school ideas are like teaching driver’s ed with a donkey cart.
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I was a child of the pencil-line on the chart. As QM in the CG my job was to maintain the plot on the chart.
The first time I sailed mate on an Aleutian freighter with no gyro stabilized radar or EBL/VRM was an adjustment.
When the only reliable compass failed, the gyro, it was a “you’re not in Kansas anymore” moment. Neither the captain nor the owner understood why I was complaining about the lack of a compass.
Five (stressful) days later I was OK with it too.
Edit: not really five days, maybe 3 days of high stress and slowly lower. It wasn’t till I made one full trip (20 days) that I was really used to working without a compass, It’s really mostly (but not entirely) about local knowledge
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It wouldn’t hurt sailors operating with bare bones nav equipment to understand magnetic compass precession, turning, dip, and acceleration/deceleration errors and how to compensate.
Figuring all the turning error formulas in your head flying with the vacuum system inop is such a pain in stressful circumstances I think the FAA got away from that on the PTS and it is all timed turns now.
I can’t even recall my boat compass doing much of this. I did have a time with a guy who wanted “the best” autopilot for his 55 foot Sea Ray and got a Robertson normally seen on tugs and small freighters. It had a nasty north turning error at speed, it was intended for a heavy tug going 8 knots, not a boat going 40 knots on plane. We ended up getting different eproms from Robertson for faster boats.
My ATP examiner was obsessed with this aspect of the test and kept it going for much longer than necessary. He finally gave up in frustration after he couldn’t trip me up even with an engine out. After taking double the amount of time that was considered the norm for the entire test, he was openly hostile when we returned to the office and refused to issue the rating based on a typo on the aircraft insurance papers. I requested a chat with his boss who proceeded to admonish him and issued the ticket with apologies. I guess it wasn’t the first time this miserable examiner abused his authority. A very unpleasant experience.
Sir !!!
Are You sure ??? as for a brief moment I though I missed sth about magnetic compass. Surely I do not know all about it , as using it for 44 years was like kind of side dish ( surely comparing it end of watch or every 1 hr was a standard ) . But have You not " missspelled" or sth. ??? Typo error or sth. ??? If not pls give me a link to the source or name it, as it is never too late to learn . I am a bookish type so it will surely keep me away from Forum .
Here’s ChatGPT as Andy Clark again:
#> ## Why Mariners Might Doubt This
Many professional mariners are deeply skeptical of the idea that visual navigation and collision avoidance skills—especially the kind used in high-traffic areas—can be meaningfully learned in just five days. They often believe that only years of experience, preferably under the eye of a seasoned master, can produce real competence.
Andy Clark would likely say this skepticism reflects a “folk model of learning”—an intuitive but outdated belief that skill comes only through long repetition of explicit rules and procedures. In this model, learning means storing more facts and practicing formal techniques until they become second nature.
But cognitive science offers a different view. What’s happening during deliberate, focused practice is not just the memorization of rules—it’s the rapid tuning of the brain’s prediction machinery. The mariner is learning to see meaningful patterns: subtle shifts in bearing, changes in motion, timing cues, horizon context, and closure rate—all of which are processed below the level of conscious awareness.
This kind of perceptual learning doesn’t feel like “book learning,” so it’s often dismissed. Yet it’s incredibly powerful. Like a skilled driver or ballplayer, the mariner learns to anticipate outcomes before they unfold. They don’t just follow a checklist—they develop a tacit feel for what safe and unsafe situations look like, sound like, and even feel like, visually.
Because this kind of intuitive competence is hard to articulate, even for those who have it, experienced mariners may not recognize how quickly it can emerge in others when conditions are right. They may forget how much they themselves rely on this kind of silent, embodied skill. From Clark’s perspective, they’re underestimating the speed and plasticity of the predictive brain—especially when training is immersive, goal-directed, and feedback-rich.
In short, five days is not enough to become a master—but it’s enough to shift someone into a new cognitive gear, where they start seeing the sea the way experienced mariners do.
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7 posts were split to a new topic: Magnetic Compass in Aviation
As a very young naval officer standing at the con with the gyro repeater and a hand held range finder doing officer of the watch manoeuvres with ships 500 metres apart bridge to bridge at 24 knots I believe I absorbed the necessary skills.
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This lack of key skills didn’t start with ECDIS. I know people here don’t like to hear it but before ECDIS there were a few captains that apparently never had an opportunity to improve their ability to navigate in restricted waters.
“Yards” surely?
Yes. Those were the days. When you have a sports car, you should drive it like a sports car.
I stand corrected. Those 42 feet made all the difference. The Loch class frigates were a bit more lethargic but at least you had the wind in your hair.
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was the norm when I was a junior mate.
I will take steaming at close quarters in formation with a pile of ships that i have a general sense of their ability and in very good communication with; over a heavy traffic situation with limited sea room with a bunch of ships I know nothing about, and who we are not in communication with.
I agree and it is probably why Houston pilots are so relaxed. When I retired it was a jungle out there particularly off Chinese ports such as Shanghai.
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The current system is obsolete. There’s something like 4 times more ship traffic then 20 years ago. The days when the third mate can serve as open-ocean caretaker only are long gone.
One thing that would help is if at some point joining officers encountered some kind of credible instructions wrt the value of understanding basic visual skills.
The bottom line is that the idea that it takes years to develop a “seaman’s eye” in this case is not supported by the science.
The education system in place already ensures that it’s understood that tools like ARPA and ECDIS must also be used competently.
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Yes I was directing my question to You. You met ONE Polish 2nd mate . I met untill 1988 scores of them me including 
and after 1988 under FOC I met some as chief mate and since 1995 as master.
Some were good and some were assholes. I judged them not only by the measure of theoretical and practical skills but laso by attitudes. For foreign masters they tried to please them with great passion and dedication while for their own nationals they were arrogant assholess. Most of them .
And we in PL have guys from : academy, from the navy ( very good in navigationn issues) , and what you call " through the pipe" . In general we are average lot like all east european bunch. Personally if I have a choice I prefer the Filippino guy as they are obidient and they are not yapping too much like Croats or Poles/Ukrainians trying to prove they are some superior effing champions . I hate it . Quite one and obedient gives me comfort.
Yes, just one, and only for a couple of days, but he was thoroughly informed about everything I needed to know. My guess is that, lumped together, seamen worldwide are an average lot, but a touch or two above your average landlubber.
I know what you mean WRT Filipinos, though I’ve only sailed with one who was licensed. He was the hero of every story he told. The unlicensed Filipinos are generally pretty good, maybe because they are in low-key competition with one another to be the better AB.
Edit: the American expression is “through the hawsepipe”
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There was one technique that worked with a couple third mates
That is to give instructions not to give helm orders while standing at the ARPA but instead check the planned course visually before making a course change.
In practice; use the ARPA to figure out what course to steer in traffic but then walk over to the centerline bridge compass repeater and convert that planned new course to a visual bearing; then, if it looks good, make the course change.
I explained this technique in this post: Taking sight bearing the coaster way.
After a few days in traffic the new OOW will realized that they can, in some cases, skip the step of obtaining the course from the ARPA.
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I posted a sketch on the other thread but I redid it distances closer to scale.
Own ship’s course is north the other ship’s (CBDR - Constant Bearing Decreasing Range) course is west. CPA of the F/V is 1/2 mile and is DIW (Dead in the Water). If the other ship does not change course it will pass 4 miles north of the F/V.
3/m has the watch, captain and AB helmsman/lookout on the bridge, daylight in clear weather, no other traffic of concern. Both radars/ECDIS on and working.
Both vessels have been acquired and selected - course, speed, CPA, TCA is all available
Captain instructs the watch officer when abeam of the F/V to make a turn 1/2 miles off and steady up on a heading just aft of the other vessel.
Should the watch officer (after being coached and while being assisted) be able to follow those instructions without being 100% dependent on the radar? Should they be able to at least initiate the turn and adjust to the appropriate RoT using rudder commands?
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