One potential benefit of a sea service letter from the company is the inclusion of a statement about being in an approved random drug testing program. That covers the drug test requirement so no other documentation needed there. Also, depending on how you move from boat to boat could make individual discharges problematic. Where I work, and do sea service letters for our people, it’s not unusual to be on 2 or even 3 different boats in a day. Granted, we are an unusual situation, but having to do 3 different forms a day, for as little as 1 hour for a particular vessel, would be a headache for the Captain’s.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;148305]As I understand it, the USCG has delayed enforcement of VPDSD until July 2015 because there are so many mariners that still need extra time to get it.[/QUOTE]
That’s great, but companies are demanding it right now. Fortunately, I ponied up the money and got it.
I gave a lot of thought to using this USCG-718A form but I still have one big problem with it. The first guy at a tug company who sends two copies of this form to the office is going to move up in the company at the rate of piss on a wall. Just because the USCG says a company “shall” send them a copy, doesn’t mean they’re going to be happy about and it doesn’t mean they’re not going to take it out on the mariner who sends it to them.
You’d have to have a hell of a lot of clout with most of the tug companies I’ve heard of to be able to pull even something as simple as this off without fear of reprisal. Until I hear of someone doing it without pissing the office off in the process I think I’m just going to have to say “No thanks!” It’s a good idea, but not at all practical with the kind of geniuses who populate the many offices of our illustrious tug fleet.
Bon chance mes amis!
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;150203]I gave a lot of thought to using this USCG-718A form but I still have one big problem with it. The first guy at a tug company who sends two copies of this form to the office is going to move up in the company at the rate of piss on a wall. Just because the USCG says a company “shall” send them a copy, doesn’t mean they’re going to be happy about and it doesn’t mean they’re not going to take it out on the mariner who sends it to them.
You’d have to have a hell of a lot of clout with most of the tug companies I’ve heard of to be able to pull even something as simple as this off without fear of reprisal. Until I hear of someone doing it without pissing the office off in the process I think I’m just going to have to say “No thanks!” It’s a good idea, but not at all practical with the kind of geniuses who populate the many offices of our illustrious tug fleet.
Bon chance mes amis![/QUOTE]
sorry you work for a piece of shit company that won’t take the smarter, easier route. They clearly can’t be trusted, but you can count on getting screwed, 718A or not.
This sea service letter / discharge issue is one area where having a real union should be a great advantage. It should be in the contract, and the union should see to it that the discharges and/or letters are properly issued.
[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;150234]sorry you work for a piece of shit company that won’t take the smarter, easier route. They clearly can’t be trusted, but you can count on getting screwed, 718A or not.[/QUOTE]
As far as tugs go this is not a company-specific issue. I have worked for about as many different tug companies as the next guy and I haven’t met one yet that would find the idea of the 718 form conciliatory. Can anyone else contest this with their own company? Please, speak now or forever hold your peace.
my office wouldn’t give a shit and does whatever I ask within reason. I also am a can-do guy and help them out when they ask, 2 way street. Maybe next time I’m around the office I’ll ask joe boss if he would do it? Don’t see why he would say no but I guarantee the NMC would fuck it up and just assume get my own letters. Especially when I have things written specifically to avoid the NMC requiring “more information.”
[QUOTE=z-drive;150238]my office wouldn’t give a shit and does whatever I ask within reason. I also am a can-do guy and help them out when they ask, 2 way street. Maybe next time I’m around the office I’ll ask joe boss if he would do it? Don’t see why he would say no but I guarantee the NMC would fuck it up and just assume get my own letters. Especially when I have things written specifically to avoid the NMC requiring “more information.”[/QUOTE]
and you are so sure the NMC would fuck it up because of all your previous experience being handed 718As by the vessel master (or possibly you as master) at the end of the voyage or end of your hitch and the office then mailing in a copy to NMC?
the NMC can’t fuck up what they aren’t being sent.
the only person who creates a situation in which a 718A is not enough information for the purpose of accurately documenting sea time is the idiot who filled it out.
Ok, how would you un-fuck this? In a 2 week hitch we sail both “inland” and “coastwise.”
Form says check “only one.” (Inland being “other”)
So you’d be submitting 2 discharges for one 2 week hitch…or just one letter from the office every year or two. I don’t have a problem with discharges but for some of us they don’t make sense and I don’t need the hassle.
I would have to agree with Paddy on this one. It has been my experience with multiple companies that asking them to do something as trivial as mailing a form to WV and maintain one on file for X number of years will get you a lot of aching and complaining. Hell, some companies belly ache about writing a letter every year or so and mailing it to your home. This sounds like a good way to get on the bad side of a crew coordinator.
I don’t remember the exact rules for issuing discharges because I have not dealt with them for so long. But my recollection is that discharges only apply to certain types of vessels on coastwise and foreign voyages, and that they are not required (and maybe cannot be issued) on vessels under 100 tons. A lot of tugs (some pretty good sized) are under 100 tons.
The rule that compels companies and masters to issue discharges, is similar to the rule that prohibits a headhunter or company from charging a mariner a fee for a job. Its a rule that is often violated, but rarely enforced. Without any enforcement by the USCG, its just another of the millions of government regulations that few people know about and are routinely ignored everyday.
If you have a good port captain, or regulatory compliance guy, he will take over and get the masters and office staff up to speed on processing discharges. If you have a bad port captain, and/or regulatory compliance guy (and many of them are bad) then you have a problem.
For vessels that operate in both inland and coastwise waters over the course of a voyage, you should call it coastwise on the discharge.
Doing discharges is actually pretty simple, except for getting the office staff to actually put them in the mail every month.
[QUOTE=z-drive;150243]Ok, how would you un-fuck this? In a 2 week hitch we sail both “inland” and “coastwise.”
Form says check “only one.” (Inland being “other”)
So you’d be submitting 2 discharges for one 2 week hitch…or just one letter from the office every year or two. I don’t have a problem with discharges but for some of us they don’t make sense and I don’t need the hassle.[/QUOTE]
the answer is “coastwise.” small freighters and tankers that used to go all the way to Albany, NY on a regular basis were not constantly discharging and then reembarking mariners by paperwork.
I understand if you choose not to do it, but that does not help the bigger picture…
of course no one is signing articles on anything other than ship (most likely), but if articles are required, then so is an official discharge, be it 718A or a continuous discharge book.
…
§14.311 Report of discharge of merchant mariner.(a) At the end of each foreign, intercoastal, and coastwise voyage by a vessel of the United States, or of each voyage by such a vessel that sails exclusively on bays or sounds (or by such a vessel at the close of the season on the Great Lakes, or once the vessel is withdrawn from service there, whichever occurs later), the shipping company may electronically transmit the data from the certificates of discharge to the electronic address provided by the Coast Guard in §14.103 of this part .
(b) If the data is submitted manually, the shipping companies must provide the data for foreign and intercoastal voyages at the end of each voyage. For coastwise voyages or of each voyage by such a vessel that sails exclusively on bays or sounds (or by such a vessel at the close of the season of the Great Lakes, or once the vessel is withdrawn from service there, whichever occurs later), the shipping companies must submit a copy of each certificate of discharge to the address in §14.103(a)[B] at least once per calendar month.
[/B]…
§14.201 Voyages upon which shipping articles are required.(a) Before proceeding either upon a foreign, intercoastal, or coastwise voyage (including a voyage on the Great Lakes) listed in paragraph (b) of this section or with the engagement or replacement of a merchant mariner for such a voyage, each master or individual in charge of a vessel or seagoing barge of the United States must execute shipping articles however prepared, manually or electronically. The master or individual in charge and each mariner engaged or replaced must sign the articles.
(b) Except as provided by §14.203 of this subpart, articles are required upon each voyage by a vessel of the United States—
(1) Of 100 GRT or more, on a foreign voyage, which is a voyage from a port in the United States to any foreign port other than a port in—
(i) Canada;
(ii) Mexico; or
(iii) The West Indies.
(2) Of 75 GRT or more on a voyage between a port of the United States on the Atlantic Ocean and a port of the United States on the Pacific Coast; or
(3) Of 50 GRT or more on a voyage between a port in one State and a port in another State other than an adjoining State.
[CGD 94-004, 61 FR 56637, Nov. 4, 1996, as amended by USCG-2004-17914, 78 FR 77999, Dec. 24, 2013]
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§14.203 Voyages upon which shipping articles are not required.Although they may be used for the voyage; shipping articles are not required for any voyage by—
(a) A yacht;
(b) A vessel engaged exclusively in fishing or whaling;
© A vessel aboard which the merchant mariners are by custom or agreement entitled to participate in the profits or results of a cruise or voyage;
(d) A vessel employed exclusively in trade on the navigable rivers of the United States; or
(e) A ferry, or a tug used in ferrying, if the vessel is employed exclusively in trade on the Great Lakes, other lakes, bays, sounds, bayous, canals, or harbors.
…
we all know that no one other than ships is likely to be operating “articles” despite the USC and CFRs, but if articles are required, so is an official discharge of some sort at the time when the seaman is in fact discharged.
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Obviously you haven’t dealt with the NMC regarding sea time that’s both inland and near coastal. How do you differentiate? They sure care and a legitimate company will not “pencil whip” it all one way or another.
Coastwise doesn’t specify.
My company writes it day for day upon route and won’t deviate from that policy.
How about saying you participated in ongoing drills and whatnot? Any box to check in a discharge?
Don’t break my balls about this as I agree it should work in theory, I’m just pointing out some things I see as hurdles for guys in my situation, based on previous dealings with the NMC regarding routes served.
The USCG takes official USCG Form Discharges that match the forms sent in monthly at face value. They are not nitpicked the way company seatime letter are. Discharges signed by the master that are supported by the copies and forms filed monthly by the office are more reliable than a seatime letter supported by nothing other than the signature of a HR person on a letter that might be issued years after the voyage.
When a ship is on a foreign voyage with numerous stops at ports along the US coast, do you think they call it all foreign on one discharge, or do you think they issue a plethora of discharges specifying the amount of time spent on inland waters in Houston, New Orleans, Savannah, baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, etc.? The ship only issues one “foreign” discharge.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;150274]The USCG takes official USCG Form Discharges that match the forms sent in monthly at face value. They are not nitpicked the way company seatime letter are. Discharges signed by the master that are supported by the copies and forms filed monthly by the office are more reliable than a seatime letter supported by nothing other than the signature of a HR person on a letter that might be issued years after the voyage.
When a ship is on a foreign voyage with numerous stops at ports along the US coast, do you think they call it all foreign on one discharge, or do you think they issue a plethora of discharges specifying the amount of time spent on inland waters in Houston, New Orleans, Savannah, baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, etc.? The ship only issues one “foreign” discharge.[/QUOTE]
We finally agree on something!
Well said!
Yeah, and you’re talking about a ship sailing foreign. I’m talking about a tug sailing coastwise; in the hypothetical situation “Joe deckhand” needs 360 days of near coastal time for a license upgrade, however the tug only sails outside 1/4 the time. The master should sign coastwise regardless of the fact that they do 3 round trips between Bayonne and Albany in a hitch and one trip between Carteret and Searsport?
All of this you’re saying is from personal experience using a discharge form to document time for a tug sailing domestically? They’ll just count it all as coastwise? Does “coastwise” imply near coastal? There are different terms used on the discharge vs license requirements, how are they interpreted? I say it leaves a lot to be interpreted by whoever counting seatime vs a letter that breaks it down more specifically.
oastwise voyage is a domestic voyage and means a voyage in which a vessel proceeds:
From one port or place in the United States to another port or place in the United States; then does it mean AND, or OR?
From a port or place in a United States possession to another port or place in the same possession, and passes outside the line dividing inland waters from the high seas; or (implies near coastal)
From a port or place in the United States or its possessions and passes outside the line dividing inland waters from the high seas and navigates on the high seas, and then returns to the same port or place.
My point here is not whether or not they’ll accept it, whether or not a master is obligated to sign them, or whether or not a company can say no. My issue is that without specifying the route and specifics you’re letting the NMC interpret the seatime however they want based on the vessel you served on and when.
Example again…you get on the tug in NY, off in NY 2 weeks later: “Coastwise voyage,” Place of shipment “Bayonne, NJ.” Place of discharge “Staten Island, NY” The NMC just magically knows you sailed to say Tampa, Bucksport, Norfolk, wherever and issues credit for the route as NC, or can they just assume you stayed in NY doing assist work the whole time and issue inland credit ?
I certainly wouldn’t know the mysteries of what happens inside the NMC today.
Some years back, I both received, and issued, a lot of discharges. Virtually, all of them were issued by domestic tugs on coastwise voyages. Yes, “coastwise” can mean different things. The discharge asks for the port and date the seaman was shipped from, and the port and date the seaman was discharged, and the type of voyage. If the tug went coastwise from one port to another, the its a “coastwise” voyage. The discharges have serial numbers and were issued to a particular vessel upon the request of the master. As long as the discharges come from the vessel they were issued to, and the monthly form with the discharge copies from the vessel was sent to the USCG, they were never questioned.
The discharges have no provision for 12 hour days, and day and a half for a day. I use to write “12 hour days” on the discharges, as far as I know that was never questioned either.
For whatever reason, the customs on small vessels have changed. I have not seen discharges for a long time. That does not mean that they should not be used, or that they are not still technically required.
Personally, I prefer discharges to company letters. Someone with company letterhead scanned with a computer can write any kind of seatime letter. I suspect that a lot of phony seatime is presented on seatime letters. I think it would be quite rare for phony seatime to be presented on discharges.
The Seaman’s Discharge Books that most other STCW countries use (similar in concept to the DP Logbooks) are a much better way to go. They appear to be authorized for use in the US by the CFRs, but I’ve never seen one.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;150286]I certainly wouldn’t know the mysteries of what happens inside the NMC today.
Some years back, I both received, and issued, a lot of discharges. Virtually, all of them were issued by domestic tugs on coastwise voyages. Yes, “coastwise” can mean different things. The discharge asks for the port and date the seaman was shipped from, and the port and date the seaman was discharged, and the type of voyage. If the tug went coastwise from one port to another, the its a “coastwise” voyage. The discharges have serial numbers and were issued to a particular vessel upon the request of the master. As long as the discharges come from the vessel they were issued to, and the monthly form with the discharge copies from the vessel was sent to the USCG, they were never questioned.
The discharges have no provision for 12 hour days, and day and a half for a day. I use to write “12 hour days” on the discharges, as far as I know that was never questioned either.
For whatever reason, the customs on small vessels have changed. I have not seen discharges for a long time. That does not mean that they should not be used, or that they are not still technically required.
Personally, I prefer discharges to company letters. Someone with company letterhead scanned with a computer can write any kind of seatime letter. I suspect that a lot of phony seatime is presented on seatime letters. I think it would be quite rare for phony seatime to be presented on discharges.
The Seaman’s Discharge Books that most other STCW countries use (similar in concept to the DP Logbooks) are a much better way to go. They appear to be authorized for use in the US by the CFRs, but I’ve never seen one.[/QUOTE]
It has been many years since I sailed, but I never spent time at sea without getting a discharge. Never even had it questioned. Coastwise or inland? As was stated above, we would run anywhere up and down the coast, across the Gulf, up the East Coast. . . run up the Houston Ship Channel, Sabine River. . . . never made a differentiation on the discharge regarding whether or not there was an inland portion to the voyage. We would also go foreign from time to time . . . Also as stated above, all were serialized and completed by the Master. I don’t recall going through the ritual of signing articles on tugs (or ATBs) like I did on ships, but that may just be because I am old and forget some trivial stuff. Hell, I am old enough to remember when the Shipping Commissioner would stamp discharges. . . . . . and be present when signing on and off. . . . .
[QUOTE=tugsailor;150249]
If you have a good port captain, or regulatory compliance guy, he will take over and get the masters and office staff up to speed on processing discharges. If you have a bad port captain, and/or regulatory compliance guy (and many of them are bad) then you have a problem.
For vessels that operate in both inland and coastwise waters over the course of a voyage, you should call it coastwise on the discharge.
Doing discharges is actually pretty simple, except for getting the office staff to actually put them in the mail every month.[/QUOTE]
Add a dazed and confused HR staff. There are many with conflicting, confused thoughts on what is and what is not part of sea service letters, and how to write them. There are still several examples of guys that have sea service letters written for ‘seaman jones’ who 'worked at this company for 1250 days as Barge Captain. And they wonder why they can’t get a license with this letter. Or, the ‘second mate’ has a sea service letter attesting to 3000 days on oil barges. That got close inspection from NMC as to why a 'second mate was applying for a 100 ton license. Then they woke up and asked the company why sea service letters were being written as ‘second mate’ when the guy didn’t even have ANY license! Strange things happen when nomenclature is slanted for the office’s POV. The HR was wonderstruck at the concept that they are ‘calling’ an unlicensed ‘second mate’ the wrong title. The term Mate means a license. It is earned. Not a ‘gimme’ to a Tankerman. (Similar to Barge Captain!) Well, it shouldn’t be anyway!
[QUOTE=tugsailor;150286]The Seaman’s Discharge Books that most other STCW countries use (similar in concept to the DP Logbooks) are a much better way to go. They appear to be authorized for use in the US by the CFRs, but I’ve never seen one.[/QUOTE]
Do any American seaman’s discharge books exist? It would be pretty simple to have the master sign and stamp your book each crew change…