Is ATB manning too low or are the manning requirements for the equivalent ships too high?
Should ATB officers get credit for the tonnage of both the tug and the barge?
On voyages over 600miles we have 1 master 2 mates 3 engineers and they are now saying 3 deck hands plus 3 tanker man. Our avg run is 650miles
As an example a typical U.S. flag, Jones Act Tanker without a large amount of automation to reduce the overall manning requirements would have a crew of about 19 to 27 people. Whereas a typical U.S. flag, Jones Act conventional tug and barge or for that matter an AT/B with a tank barge, with the same cargo carrying capability can operate with as few as 7 people, but seldom more than 10.
On the 19-27 number how many would be stewards?
I certainly believe that any ATB combined unit of 10000grt and higher should have master, three mates, chief, 3 assistants, 3 AB’s and 3 QMED’s for 14 not including 2 stewards department. for 16. I will give on the U: licenses provided that the officers do not get UL discharges. If you get a UL discharge you should hold a UL license…
I carry 19-20.on a conventional PCTC
Captain three mates
C/E and three assistants
6 ABs
Two oilers
3 in stwd dept - C/Stwd , cook and Stwd assist.
Sometimes a cadet or two
I don’t know where the 27 number came from.
K.C.
UL discharges?
I guess since I’ve only sailed small tugs I think our current manning is fine. I think I’d go crazy working 4on 8 off as a deck hand that doesn’t stand watch
[QUOTE=kfj;69643]I guess since I’ve only sailed small tugs I think our current manning is fine. I think I’d go crazy working 4on 8 off as a deck hand that doesn’t stand watch[/QU
From what I’ve seen on ATBs, The ABs work 4&8 underway and 6&6 on cargo watches.
[QUOTE=kfj;69641]UL discharges?[/QUOTE]
ie. a discharge as a chief mate for a tankship of over 3000ITC when it is not manned as a subchapter D tankship with no unlimited tonnage chief mate on the COI. Yes, I know this screws a guy with an UL chief mate license sailing the equivalent position aboard an ATB but this also holds with large OSV’s over 3000grt as well. Throwing out all the rules which have any divide between limited and unlimited licenses disenfranchises those of us who went the extra distance to get the UL license in the first place hence my being less than happy that there are going to be equivalent super OSV master licenses for over 6000grt coming someday and I doubt very seriously that the USCG is going to set the same standard of sea service and training for a super OSV master than for a full UL tonnage master (at least non if OMSA has anything to say about it and I am sure they do).
I feel the large OSV endorsement service requirements are a farce. Yes, I hate boat guys running ships without having to do anything really special at all to get the qualification. An effing company course and 57 days on a large OSV does not make a man a ship master imo, but OMSA has the game rigged in its favor. There are many here who feel otherwise and we have had this argument already but we can start it again…or not.
calling Anchorman…come in if you copy.
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[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;69626]Is ATB manning too low or are the manning requirements for the equivalent ships too high?
Should ATB officers get credit for the tonnage of both the tug and the barge?[/QUOTE]
Interesting query.
Many years ago, when feeling the first pangs of competition between hawsepiper vs. academy I was trying to get a rationale feeling for the “reason” for the dilemma. I looked into the tonnage differences between a ‘Typical’ US flag tanker Vs. a US Tug and barge and the tonnage involved. The example I found was the Gulf Supreme. She moved 240,000 BBLs. The crew was 29. The deadweight tonnage was 28,000. The Tug and Barge Equivalent was a 12500 ton barge with 205,000 BBLs product, an 11 man crew, and was around 19,000 DWT.
Made me realize all this ‘pecker checking’ of who had the unlimited license, and who had the biggest and the bestest was all BULLSHIT. In my experience there is just as experienced mariner in either vein, but little to no realization or acceptance of such equity. Too bad.
Fast Fwd to now, Now as one vetter mentioned during a vetting: “The vetting organizations are only just now realizing that 'Unlimited tonnage” Tank vessels (barges) are being operated by (in some cases) 200 ton operators." It is hard to believe that such ‘mismanagement’ could be allowed. How could this happen? How has this been allowed to go on (for 40 years)? When will ‘we’ get rid of this incompetent operation? Should we?
I thought we buried this horse already and all agreed to disagree.
You can argue about limited tonnage mariners running these units that in some cases are larger then jones act tankers but the tug boat guys can definitely maneuver these units more efficiently especially since they came up on tugs. I think it’s only a matter of time till they require unlimited tonnage officers. Many companies now only hirer mates and engineers that are academy grads. The most I’ve seen on an atb crew wise would be 13 but idk about the new Crowley 750’s. I believe that it just goes to show that the people working on this units carrying the same amount of product can get the job done as efficiently as the same size tanker with 10 or more less personnel. Pay scales on the other hand would tell you different as tankers are usually hirer paying for in my opinion less work.
I always thought the USCG should give guys barge tonnage. If you are pulling a 400’ 15,000 ton barge with 2000’ of wire through the inside passage to Alaska you are doing some maneuvering, and most guys I work with are 200ton masters. I would think it is harder to tow a barge as mate to Alaska inside passage than sail from Hawaii to Seattle on the auto pilot of a ship as a 3rd, or for that matter Seattle to Alaska on the outside ocean. Just my opinion.
[QUOTE=crudeman89;69658]The most I’ve seen on an atb crew wise would be 13 but idk about the new Crowley 750’s. I believe that it just goes to show that the people working on this units carrying the same amount of product can get the job done as efficiently as the same size tanker with 10 or more less personnel.[/QUOTE]
A very good friend and ex shipmate of mine was a chief engineer for USSP on one of their ATB’s and he told me frightening tales of only 3 engineers and no QMEDs to run a 12000hp Wartsila medium speed plant on IFO plus the engineers were also in charge of maintenance of the pumps and other machinery systems on the barge! There is no effing way anybody here can tell me this is BETTER than running a tankship with 7 men in the engineroom. My friend did it for two years before he said EFF THIS CRAP and quit that circus.
The whole reason there are ATB’s instead of tankers being built is for reduced manning and being able to hire lower level licenses.
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE PROFITS MY FRIENDS!
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[QUOTE=rshrew;69661]I always thought the USCG should give guys barge tonnage. If you are pulling a 400’ 15,000 ton barge with 2000’ of wire through the inside passage to Alaska you are doing some maneuvering, and most guys I work with are 200ton masters. I would think it is harder to tow a barge as mate to Alaska inside passage than sail from Hawaii to Seattle on the auto pilot of a ship as a 3rd, or for that matter Seattle to Alaska on the outside ocean. Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Of course it is harder but that is not how the system works and as soon as you start giving away big tonnage licenses to every guy who drives a boat where does it stop in the end? Yes, the system is set up so that big licensed guys can downsize and sail on workboats without penalty but limited tonnage people can’t go in the opposite direction but remember that the guys with the big tonnage licenses had to earn those to start with and in most cases, went to a school for 4 years. I had one large OSV captain (hardly one I would call a master) at xxLLC swear up and down that he was every bit as qualified to command a merchant ship as any UL master was yet this same man had the most minimal grasp of any of the myriad regulations that a shipmaster must know or complexities of a large cargo ships construction and systems. Sure, this same person could place a large OSV into little places but being able to drive a big boat in, out and all around Fourchon does not make for a ship master who can run a crude oil carrier or LMSR.
Anything that the USCG does at the behest of the companies which reduces the need big tonnage licenses such as ATBs or that makes it easier for limited tonnage people to get UL licenses is one great kick in the balls to those who did the extra work to earn the licenses they did upfront. I am one of those and not at all afraid to say it!
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[QUOTE=cappy208;69650]Interesting query.
She moved 240,000 BBLs. The crew was 29. The deadweight tonnage was 28,000. The Tug and Barge Equivalent was a 12500 ton barge with 205,000 BBLs product, an 11 man crew, and was around 19,000 DWT…
[/QUOTE]
We have a 2 person crew for the above specifications , … and yes it is an incredible responsibility for those 2 men, There needs to be better manning requirements imo !
Edit: look at my avatar 2 men do it all believe it our not …
[QUOTE=rshrew;69661] If you are pulling a 400’ 15,000 ton barge with 2000’ of wire through the inside passage to Alaska you are doing some maneuvering, and most guys I work with are 200ton masters. I would think it is harder to tow a barge as mate to Alaska inside passage than sail from Hawaii to Seattle on the auto pilot of a ship as a 3rd, or for that matter Seattle to Alaska on the outside ocean. Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]
I’ve done all three - pulled a barge up the inside / ship on the inside / ship on auto pilot across the Pacific. Also a bonus fourth, towed a barge across the Pacific.
With regards to towing vs a ship on the Inside. The difficultly with towing is obvious, you have to watch the second vessel, the barge. One element that makes the ship difficult is the speed. Traffic and turns come up a lot quicker at 18 kts then at 8.
On the Inside a tug/tow or a ship can be a challenge.
K.C.
Nope. Don’t believe it. Your barge does not show up to load or discharge with a two man crew. It takes a village, not just the monkeys hanging out on the branches!
Most bouchard barges have a crew of 2 but some are 3
http://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/477557_3409101020955_1072856271_3070955_669786025_o.jpg
a 3 man barge