I have had diner once and shared drinks Max and and he’s ok in my book. Sure he’s not up to date on the latest technology and is as old school as it gets. Sure he likes the spotlight. Sure he’s a bit rough around the edges but please don’t compare him to Watson.
P.S. That NBC quote was lifted from a gCaptain article I asked Max to write for us years ago. It was taken without attribution and totally out of context.
That’s just…uuuuuggghhh!
He is definitely not the same as Watson. That is a totally different type of clown show.
[QUOTE=socalguy;170366]Many of the freighters on the Great Lakes have open lifeboats. No way in hell I’d bail out in one of those on Lake Superior. I’d much rather hang with the inflatable rafts in my gumby suit. I don’t see any ships being refitted with new boats any time soon either.[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are most correct! I worked on multiple Great Lakes vessels and at least one of them had open lifeboats. And I don’t think that will change anytime soon… Those ships are really like floating, operating museums.
And I would think that there are some ocean-going US ships left in the Jones Act trades with open lifeboats.
But I think far fewer US flag ships have open lifeboats today than they did just 10 years ago. Why? Because so many of the older ships have been sent to the breaker for scrap.
[QUOTE=SaltySailor;170638]Yes, you are most correct! I worked on multiple Great Lakes vessels and at least one of them had open lifeboats. And I don’t think that will change anytime soon… Those ships are really like floating, operating museums.
And I would think that there are some ocean-going US ships left in the Jones Act trades with open lifeboats.
But I think far fewer US flag ships have open lifeboats today than they did just 10 years ago. Why? Because so many of the older ships have been sent to the breaker for scrap.[/QUOTE]
I find it interesting that so many are concentrating the open/closed lifeboat issue when it is, in fact, irrelevant. . . .
I had been looking online at the LSA code and SOLAS and did not find any specific mention of open lifeboats. What has been mentioned above, I assume, are all US flagged vessels operating on domestic routes. I was just wondering if open lifeboats are SOLAS compliant and, if so, what restrictions, if any, there might be in operating areas. I have been sailing foreign flagged vessels and do not recall seeing any open lifeboats. But then again I have not been looking for them.
[QUOTE=cmakin;170648]I find it interesting that so many are concentrating the open/closed lifeboat issue when it is, in fact, irrelevant. . . .[/QUOTE]
I don’t think it’s irrelevant. May not be the big question of this terrible casualty but it is a piece that will need to be considered by the investigators.
The photo of the one lifeboat we’ve seen shows heavy damage, possibly in deployment, probably not. But, the relevance of open lifeboat versus closed is something that would weigh in the decision-making of the crew in choosing to bail or stay, with a heavy bias to stay–if the tempo of the decision-making and final casualty allowed such consideration. Would a group of mariners hesitate to evacuate in heavy weather using open boats, inflatable liferafts that will almost certainly turn into kites and fly away like in the Bering, or, would they look at 700+ ft of compartmented steel ship and ‘trust’ that no matter how bad it seems, the big steel thing is the best way to go? Would a big orange totally enclosed boat, with its shelter from the weather, seat belts and better survival kit than the white open boat (with orange insides) have made them weigh that balance differently, recognize the new LNG-fueled big steel ship is coming and that the insurance will handle it so… let’s go folks? Especially when the big steel thing is listing? If the answer is that it would (and now will for mariners who have now seen that damaged lifeboat and have less faith than before), then maybe the authorities will make efforts to replace outdated survival gear-- despite it’s continued technical ‘compliance’-- since reliance, and faith of crew would be lacking, rendering them effectively useless for the intended purpose.
[QUOTE=Jamesbrown;170655]I don’t think it’s irrelevant. May not be the big question of this terrible casualty but it is a piece that will need to be considered by the investigators.
The photo of the one lifeboat we’ve seen shows heavy damage, possibly in deployment, probably not. But, the relevance of open lifeboat versus closed is something that would weigh in the decision-making of the crew in choosing to bail or stay, with a heavy bias to stay–if the tempo of the decision-making and final casualty allowed such consideration. Would a group of mariners hesitate to evacuate in heavy weather using open boats, inflatable liferafts that will almost certainly turn into kites and fly away like in the Bering, or, would they look at 700+ ft of compartmented steel ship and ‘trust’ that no matter how bad it seems, the big steel thing is the best way to go? Would a big orange totally enclosed boat, with its shelter from the weather, seat belts and better survival kit than the white open boat (with orange insides) have made them weigh that balance differently, recognize the new LNG-fueled big steel ship is coming and that the insurance will handle it so… let’s go folks? Especially when the big steel thing is listing? If the answer is that it would (and now will for mariners who have now seen that damaged lifeboat and have less faith than before), then maybe the authorities will make efforts to replace outdated survival gear-- despite it’s continued technical ‘compliance’-- since reliance, and faith of crew would be lacking, rendering them effectively useless for the intended purpose.[/QUOTE]
As someone with over 35 years in the business including a large portion of it at sea, I respectfully disagree.
[QUOTE=PMC;170650]I had been looking online at the LSA code and SOLAS and did not find any specific mention of open lifeboats. What has been mentioned above, I assume, are all US flagged vessels operating on domestic routes. I was just wondering if open lifeboats are SOLAS compliant and, if so, what restrictions, if any, there might be in operating areas. I have been sailing foreign flagged vessels and do not recall seeing any open lifeboats. But then again I have not been looking for them.[/QUOTE]
No, they are accepted for SOLAS if still serviceable based on build year of the vessel. The 1983 SOLAS amendments introduced the requirement for totally enclosed lifeboats–but like most new regulations would not be retro-actively applied. There are a number of US flag Jones Act vessels (SOLAS compliant) built before the 1983 amendments still in service.
the question of open vs. closed boats is not as germane as the question of how the boats are launched. Boats in gravity davits needing to be lowered from such a great height are not boats which could ever be hoped to be successfully used in the conditions the EL FARO was encountering that fateful morning. Boats need to be able to be deployed with all survivors in them without being subjected to wild pedulumming and without requiring anyone to remain aboard. Ie. they should be freefall or like a capsule which could conceivably float free and they should also be enclosed too.
I always wondered why in WWII a survival capsule type boat was not fitted to ships and why for decades afterwards up till today there remains a dependence on boats requiring winches and falls to deploy. I believe the majority of lifeboat failures killing crewmembers while being launched it is the means used to accomplish that which is time consuming and subject to multiple points of failure. The standard lifeboat is fine when the ship is fully upright but when a ship is heeled over far and rolling they are deathtraps.
[QUOTE=cmakin;170648]I find it interesting that so many are concentrating the open/closed lifeboat issue when it is, in fact, irrelevant. . . .[/QUOTE]
I was just answering a question- Yes, I’ve been on US flagged ships with open lifeboats and those vessels are still in service. And I also think the question has more to do with method of lifeboat launch. What about other ships which have enclosed lifeboats with same method of launching?
I see c.captain beat me to it, but yes, I agree, the method of launch is very important- Gravity davits take more time as well and they can be rendered inoperable due to various conditions.
When I took the lifeboat course, we had a wicked time launching and maneuvering the boat with anything but calm winds and seas. I am all for making things as simple and fool-proof as possible. Especially when those “things” are our lifesaving gear and our last option save for the rafts & suits.
[QUOTE=SaltySailor;170665]I see c.captain beat me to it, but yes, I agree, the method of launch is very important- Gravity davits take more time as well and they can be rendered inoperable due to various conditions. [/QUOTE]
I am borrowing your avatar for awhile because now I am feeling a righteous indignation and anger at what I believe is the withholding of critical information on the EL FARO’s loss by TOTE and the USCG.
The determined look on the face of that old mariner matches the look on my face now
[QUOTE=c.captain;170658]…how the boats are launched. Boats in gravity davits needing to be lowered from such a great height are not boats which could ever be hoped to be successfully used in the conditions the EL FARO was encountering that fateful morning. [/QUOTE]
Another consideration should be that the vessel was already listing 15 degrees earlier in the day. Design criteria for the side-launched boats stipulates launch capability at angles up to 20 degrees.
The point is that they didn’t have too much more go wrong to exceed an angle that might render the davits incapable of travel.
My suspicion is that the boats might never have been an option.
My outfit has a ATB that has two open boats on quadrantle (sheathscrew)davits. Not a chance in hell of a successful launching in snotty weather. Freefall lifeboats are the only way to go.
Here’s a rough translation from the report which included the photograph of the open-top lifeboat I posted earlier:
The crew wasn’t able to lower any of the ship’s ten lifeboats. When the vessel sank, nine lifeboats broke free and floated to the surface. All three boats found during the rescue operation had either capsized or filled with water. One crew member had managed to climb into the water-filled lifeboat. Two capsized lifeboats had a total of six persons hanging on top of them, but one person was washed away from both of them before helicopters managed to rescue the survivors. Once again, traditional lifeboats proved to be useless in an emergency.
138 survivors were picked from inflatable life rafts or from the sea by ships (34) and helicopters (104). Since the only way to get to the life rafts was to climb onto them from the sea where water temperature was about 50°F and significant wave height between 13 and 20 feet, most of those who survived were young men in good physical health.
Anyway, I don’t recall ever being on a ship with open-top lifeboats. However, I’ve been on a few vessels (at least one ITB and one icebreaker) which had no lifeboats at all, just a FRB and liferafts.
The best looking survival craft I’ve seen are the Canadian egg shaped float free capsules. But I’d prefer steel over fiberglass.
[QUOTE=WPM;170675]Another consideration should be that the vessel was already listing 15 degrees earlier in the day. Design criteria for the side-launched boats stipulates launch capability at angles up to 20 degrees.
The point is that they didn’t have too much more go wrong to exceed an angle that might render the davits incapable of travel.
My suspicion is that the boats might never have been an option.[/QUOTE]
I agree that the lifeboats and the liferafts were not a viable option for the El Faro crews under those conditions. Assuming they even had time to consider using them.
A side launch free fall lifeboat probably would not have done them any good either.
No doubt choosing a type of lifeboat in a hurricane would be like picking what type of knife you would use to fight a grizzly bear. What motivated my original post was I was sitting in on a basic safety training class recently and a video was shown demonstrating lifeboat launching procedures. The boat was an open boat and I commented that I have not seen one of these in years. Then I saw the photo of the mangled El Faro lifeboat and my curiosity was piqued about how many of these open boats were out there. Cruise ships got rid of them in 1983. And, yes, often there are not closed lifeboats for everyone on board a cruise ship either. Imagine seeing your life raft emerging from a raging sea and blow away at over 100 miles an hour! Not like getting on board in the pool.
I have work onboard a great lakes bulker and US flagged with an open lifeboat last 2011 with the American Steamship Company.
The old TECO ITB(Florida express/Costal 202) has 2 open life boats. The Energy Enterprise, Texas Enterprise, and Mississippi Enterprises all appear to be open life boats. The Sulfur Enterprise has a free fall one
202 was the boat I was talking about.