Where is the documentation that says a 3m can be a mate on a vessel less than 1600/3000 tons?
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;79202]Where is the documentation that says a 3m can be a mate on a vessel less than 1600/3000 tons?[/QUOTE]
Well, if you are looking at a 3rd Mate’s ticket, it’s in your hand.
Yes, but it is a “third” mate. How can you prove to someone that that license is qualified to serve in a coi spot that calls for “mate”?
To elaborate, the only reason that limited Mates are just called Mates, it there was usually just one. The Captain was a watch stander and worked opposite the Mate. Large vessels now typically require more than one Mate, but traditionally, 3rd, 2nd, and Chief Mates were reserved for ships that required a minimum of three Mates with an established hierarchy, separate roles, and different experience levels - required by the safe manning document. Any one of those unlimited tonnage Mates can work as a Mate on a limited tonnage vessel when there is no hierarchy present, they just cannot work as Chief Mate with a 3rd Mate license when there is one.
You know, there are issues, and road blocks for those that want to move up from limited tonnage vessels to unlimited Master. The Chief Mate level is usually the problem; 3rd Mates and 2nd Mates are classified as OICWN by STCW. Same thing for any Mate 500 tons and up - all are OICNW and take the same test as 3rd and 2nd Mates, besides tonnage, all are interchangeable from a competency standpoint. Once you get to Chief Mate, you are not an OICNW and are considered at the Management Level and competency requirements increase. The Coast Guard, when evaluating Chief Mate time, will look for exactly that - Chief Mate time. To get Chief Mate time, you have to be in a system that needs one in the established hierarchy mentioned. Otherwise, you were not a Chief Mate of much at all.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;79207]Yes, but it is a “third” mate. How can you prove to someone that that license is qualified to serve in a coi spot that calls for “mate”?[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t matter, nothing to prove. He is a Mate. 3rd, 2nd, and all of that means nothing in limited tonnage world. Cover it with your thumb.
I understand all of that but is it in writing somewhere official?
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;79214]I understand all of that but is it in writing somewhere official?[/QUOTE]
There may be something in the Marine Safety Manual that explicitly says that, but it is understood by tonnage, route, and STCW that is the case. “3rd” is not a restriction, it’s a superior authority to just “Mate”.
I understand all that but am trying to figure out how to prove it officially to someone who swears he has had unlimited mates pulled off his osv because their license didn’t allow them to be one of the required mates. Maybe it is just something the office does for some reason. (He also swears that the nmc will print an mmc that says both 3m and 1600/3000 ton mate.)
I once sailed with a bitter old “third captain” who tried to tell me that my third mates license did not allow me to stand watch because clearly third mate must be below mate. All I said to him was “where does your license specifically say captain on it”. Let me tell you what, he struggled with that one poor guy.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;79219]I understand all that but am trying to figure out how to prove it officially to someone who swears he has had unlimited mates pulled off his osv because their license didn’t allow them to be one of the required mates. Maybe it is just something the office does for some reason. (He also swears that the nmc will print an mmc that says both 3m and 1600/3000 ton mate.)[/QUOTE]
Well, have you thought of him being full of shit?
It sounds like the office doesn’t know what they are doing.
I had a captain tell me his mate who has a 1600/6000 mate license has a bigger license than my unlimited license because his just says mate and mine said third mate. I tried to explain it to him but he didn’t want to hear it. So I just cut my losses and said ok.
Yes, but I don’t see this guy just making stuff up.
I’m probably going to just take your route. I could have sworn I saw it in regulation somewhere but I can’t find it again now though.
Listen to anchorman…he wrote the book on this and if his word isn’t good enough then show your most obtuse office person this table from 46CFR:
3rd mate unlimited = mate 1600/3000
2nd mate unlimited = master 1600/3000
sheesh…this is elementary school level stuff
Ahh but 2nd mate only = 1600 ton master if you take the damn test…
[QUOTE=New3M;79273]Ahh but 2nd mate only = 1600 ton master if you take the damn test…[/QUOTE]
what…all 50 questions of it?
It might be 70…PLUS a rules test!
And 1600 ton master does not qualify one for second mate.
It’s 70. No Rules test just Flashing Light
I currently hold and have held for 42 years, a third mates License of Steam and motor vessels of any gross tons, It takes 3 years as a limited master to sit for this license, and I am presently employed on the capacity of mate on a vessel of 3183 Gross tons. Anyone who tells you that a third mates is junior to limited mates is deeply misinformed.