200 tons and a TOAR?

Maritime Topics Maritime Training & Licensing
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46 CFR 11.464(a) says:
If you hold an endorsement as master of towing vessels you may have an endorsement-as mate (pilot) of towing vessels for a route superior to your current route on which you have no operating experience—placed on your MMC after passing an examination for that additional route. After you complete 90 days of experience and complete a Towing Officer’s Assessment Record on that route, we will add it to your endorsement as master of towing vessels and remove the one for mate (pilot) of towing vessels."

So I’m getting Master of Towing Inland after doing an inland TOAR… Would like to request the Mate of Towing Vessels NC once I have the 30 days training and observation on NC route. What is the “examination for that additional route”? Rules of the Road? I also hold a Master 200 GRT NC…

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I took apprentice mate steersman course and that’s the only license I hold so when’s it turns into a mates license is it only good up to 200grt any info on this?

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yes tugs over 200 require a license for inspected vessels over 200 tons (need a 500).

I forget if that applies inland or not though?!?

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I though j read inland would be agt and near coastal up to 200grt but knees have the time in on my towing license I’ll just sit for a 500 ton instead of going back and doing 100ton then upgrade 200ton, might as well
Just sit for the 500? Would be the smartest way correct?

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[QUOTE=Tugslasthitch;171769]I though j read inland would be agt and near coastal up to 200grt but knees have the time in on my towing license I’ll just sit for a 500 ton instead of going back and doing 100ton then upgrade 200ton, might as well
Just sit for the 500? Would be the smartest way correct?[/QUOTE]

Master and Mate of Towing Vessel endorsements are valid for up to 300 GRT on near coastal and oceans.

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is that endorsed on the license or will it just say mate of towing near coastal

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[QUOTE=Tugslasthitch;171772]is that endorsed on the license or will it just say mate of towing near coastal[/QUOTE]

It won’t be on the endorsement as the limtation is not based on the endorsement per se, but where it will be used (i.e. if it was on the endorsement, you could not exceed that tonnage even if you were to operate where that limtation doesn’t apply (inland and WR).

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Going right to 500 makes more sense, I think.

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[QUOTE=jdcavo;171771]IMaster and Mate of Towing Vessel endorsements are valid for up to 300 GRT on near coastal and oceans.[/QUOTE]

Then, what license is required to serve as Master or Mate on a towing vessel over 300 GRT on near coastal and oceans?

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regular license for the tonnage plus a toar for that route (or license plus another mate/master of towing license on the route I think). Over 300 they’re supposed to be inspected vessels if nothing else.

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[QUOTE=jdcavo;171771]Master and Mate of Towing Vessel endorsements are valid for up to 300 GRT on near coastal and oceans.[/QUOTE]

Not according to 46 CFR 11.463. According to the current CFR someone holding [I]just[/I] MoT [B]CANNOT[/B] sail international (on any route, even inland) or oceans, regardless of tonnage of the tug, and domestic near-coastal routes are limited to 200 GRT. To sail international or oceans one must have STCW II/1 or II/2 which means at least a 500 ton domestic license.

46 CFR 11.463 - General requirements for national endorsements as master, mate (pilot), and apprentice mate (steersman) of towing vessels.

(f) Deck officers who serve on the following seagoing vessels must comply with the requirements of §§11.309 and 11.311 of this subpart for the appropriate STCW endorsement:

(1) A towing vessel on an oceans voyage operating beyond near-coastal waters.

(2) A towing vessel on an international voyage.

B A towing vessel of 200 GRT or more on a domestic, near-coastal voyage.[/B]

For reference:

§11.309 Requirements to qualify for an STCW endorsement as Officer in charge of a navigational watch (OICNW) of vessels of 500 GT or more (operational level).

§11.311 Requirements to qualify for an STCW endorsement as master of vessels of 500 GT or more and less than 3,000 GT (management level).

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[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;171840]…To sail international or oceans one must have STCW II/1 or II/2 which means at least a 500 ton domestic license…[/QUOTE]

You do not need a national officer endorsement (license) for 500 GRT to get STCW. You can get an STCW endorsement while holding Mate or Master of Towing Vessels. Note the following:

For Master of Towing Vessels, 46 CFR 11.464(b): [I]A person holding this endorsement may qualify for an STCW endorsement[/I] [as Master], [I]according to §§11.307, 11.311, 11.313, and 11.315 of this part[/I]

For Mate of Towing Vessels, 46 CFR 11.465(h): [I]A person holding this endorsement may qualify for an STCW endorsement [/I][as OICNW], [I]according to §§11.309, 11.317, 11.319, and 11.321 of this part.[/I]

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[QUOTE=jdcavo;171880]You do not need a national officer endorsement (license) for 500 GRT to get STCW. You can get an STCW endorsement while holding Mate or Master of Towing Vessels. Note the following:

For Master of Towing Vessels, 46 CFR 11.464(b): [I]A person holding this endorsement may qualify for an STCW endorsement[/I] [as Master], [I]according to §§11.307, 11.311, 11.313, and 11.315 of this part[/I]

For Mate of Towing Vessels, 46 CFR 11.465(h): [I]A person holding this endorsement may qualify for an STCW endorsement [/I][as OICNW], [I]according to §§11.309, 11.317, 11.319, and 11.321 of this part.[/I][/QUOTE]

While true, if you qualify for STCW endorsements II/2 or II/1 don’t you also qualify for Master or Mate 500/1600 as well? The STCW requirements (the classes and assessments) are the hardest part of getting those licenses and I believe the STCW endorsement requires the same test as the national license so while it’s possible to get, it seems pointless to not get the domestic license as well.

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[QUOTE=z-drive;171814]regular license for the tonnage plus a toar for that route (or license plus another mate/master of towing license on the route I think). Over 300 they’re supposed to be inspected vessels if nothing else.[/QUOTE]

I think you are right. I assume that anyone with Master 1600 and Master of Towing can run a towing vessel up to 1600 GRT, but I have never seen a regulation that clearly answers that question.

For that matter, I have not seen a regulation that says that anyone with Master 1600 would need Master of Towing or a Toar, in order to run an inspected tug over 300 GRT.

Isn’t Toar only required to obtain Master or Mate of Towing for unispected vessels? Where does it say that Toar is necessary for service on an inspected towing vessel?

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;171887]I think you are right. I assume that anyone with Master 1600 and Master of Towing can run a towing vessel up to 1600 GRT, but I have never seen a regulation that clearly answers that question.[/QUOTE]

This may be splitting hairs but you need the STCW endorsement to run outside the boundary line over 200 GRT or to run international on any route of any tonnage or to run oceans on any tonnage. (It is still possible to get a domestic 1600 ton near coastal license with no STCW…)

A Master 1600/3000 with Master of Towing can run a towing vessel up to 1600 GRT or 3000 GT, domestic or international, on any waters.

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;171887]I think you are right. I assume that anyone with Master 1600 and Master of Towing can run a towing vessel up to 1600 GRT, but I have never seen a regulation that clearly answers that question.

For that matter, I have not seen a regulation that says that anyone with Master 1600 would need Master of Towing or a Toar, in order to run an inspected tug over 300 GRT.

Isn’t Toar only required to obtain Master or Mate of Towing for unispected vessels? Where does it say that Toar is necessary for service on an inspected towing vessel?[/QUOTE]
§15.910 Towing vessels.
No person may serve as a master or mate (pilot) of [B]any towing vessel[/B][B][I](inspected, uninspected)[/I][/B] without meeting the requirements of §§15.805(a)(5) or 15.810(d) of this part.

[USCG-2006-24371, 74 FR 11263, Mar. 16, 2009]

then

§15.805 Master.
(a) There must be an individual holding an appropriate license as or a valid MMC with endorsement as master in command of each of the following vessels:

(1) Every self-propelled, seagoing documented vessel of 200 GRT and over.

(2) Every self-propelled inspected vessel;

(3) Every inspected passenger vessel;

(4) Every inspected small passenger vessel; and

(5) [B]Every towing vessel of at least 8 meters (26 feet) or more in length must be in command of a master of towing vessels, or a mariner holding a license or MMC endorsed as master of inspected, self-propelled vessels greater than 200 GRT holding either—[/B]

B A completed Towing Officer’s Assessment Record (TOAR), bearing the signature of a Designated Examiner and stating that the Examiner found the candidate proficient; or

(ii) A license or MMC endorsed for master of towing vessels.[/B]

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[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;171884]While true, if you qualify for STCW endorsements II/2 or II/1 don’t you also qualify for Master or Mate 500/1600 as well? The STCW requirements (the classes and assessments) are the hardest part of getting those licenses and I believe the STCW endorsement requires the same test as the national license so while it’s possible to get, it seems pointless to not get the domestic license as well.[/QUOTE]

Not automatically. While it’s the same STCW endorsement associated with both national endorsements (licenses), the national endorsements are separate from STCW and you won’t get a 500 GRT endorsement simply by meeting the requirements for STCW. You’ll have to show you meet all of the requirements for the 500 GRT national endorsement, and you’d have to take an exam for 500 GRT.

      • Updated - - -

[QUOTE=tugsailor;171887]…Isn’t Toar only required to obtain Master or Mate of Towing for unispected vessels? Where does it say that Toar is necessary for service on an inspected towing vessel?[/QUOTE]

I’d ask you the converse, where does it say it is [U][I]not[/U][/I] required?

See 46 CFR 15.910: [I]No person may serve as a master or mate (pilot) of [/I][U][I][B]any[/U][/I][/B] [I]towing vessel without meeting the requirements of §§15.805(a)(5) or 15.810(d) of this part.[/I] [emphasis added]

Now see 46 CFR 15.805(a)(5) and 46 CFR 15.810(d). Note that they only specify “towing vessels” meaning [U]ALL[/U] towing vessels.

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[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;171888]This may be splitting hairs but you need the STCW endorsement to run outside the boundary line over 200 GRT or to run international on any route of any tonnage or to run oceans on any tonnage.[/QUOTE]

You make a very good point that most tugboat companies and tugboat Mariners do not understand, and many do not comply with.

An outside tug over 200 tons requires STCW.

An international voyage, i.e., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, etc., requires Mariners holding STCW, regardless of whether the tug is under 200 tons or not.

I am not so sure about your other point that an ocean voyage (i.e.,to Alaska (directly across the Gulf of Alaska going more than 200 miles offshore), or to Hawaii, or to Puerto Rico,) also requires STCW on a tug under 200 GRT. Is that right?

Some of the larger companies have their own requirements far in excess of what the USCG requires. Some companies have preferences that go beyond USCG requirements. Some companies apparently have no idea of what is actually required.

After getting all the STCW endorsements on my own time and dime, it’s really irritating to see companies routinely sending guys without STCW II/2 out on voyages which do require it.

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;171898]I am not so sure about your other point that an ocean voyage (i.e.,to Alaska (directly across the Gulf of Alaska going more than 200 miles offshore), or to Hawaii, or to Puerto Rico,) also requires STCW on a tug under 200 GRT. Is that right?[/QUOTE]

Copied from my reply to jdcavo on page 3:

46 CFR 11.463 - General requirements for national endorsements as master, mate (pilot), and apprentice mate (steersman) of towing vessels.

(f) Deck officers who serve on the following seagoing vessels must comply with the requirements of §§11.309 and 11.311 of this subpart for the appropriate STCW endorsement:

B A towing vessel on an oceans voyage operating beyond near-coastal waters.[/B]

(2) A towing vessel on an international voyage.

(3) A towing vessel of 200 GRT or more on a domestic, near-coastal voyage.

For reference:

§11.309 Requirements to qualify for an STCW endorsement as Officer in charge of a navigational watch (OICNW) of vessels of 500 GT or more (operational level).

§11.311 Requirements to qualify for an STCW endorsement as master of vessels of 500 GT or more and less than 3,000 GT (management level).

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[QUOTE=jdcavo;171897]Not automatically. While it’s the same STCW endorsement associated with both national endorsements (licenses), the national endorsements are separate from STCW and you womn’t get a 500 GRT endorsement simply by meeting the requirements for STCW. You’ll have to show you meet all of the requirements for the 500 GRT national endorsement, and you’d have to take an exam for 500 GRT.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure about the exam, I thought some of the questions were asked to meet compliance with STCW so I figured that Master 3000 would be required to take the Master 1600 exam anyway. Other than the exam though the STCW requirements are above those of the national license. For OICNW the sea time is the same but almost all the required classes, training and assessments are only required by STCW.

Can you illustrate an example of how someone could possibly qualify for Master 3000 without also qualifying for Master 1600? Or how one could qualify for OICNW without also qualifying for Mate 500/1600?