[QUOTE=c.captain;193317]it is because that the WSF people are believed by many of us (including myself) to be a bunch which operate in a rarefied atmosphere where they receive high pay and the best benefits possible for their service which frankly is EASY work so we expect the HIGHEST standards of professional performance. Certainly these people do not work anywhere near as hard that your people do for much higher pay and get to go home each night. Why should we NOT hold them to an expectation that they pilot their vessels with 100% COLREGS compliance and not pillory them when they don’t?
furthermore, not too many of us here feel the pleasure boat community to be one which any of us believe to operate to professional standards so we are much more prepared to not jump all other them for their follies. however in this case, the appearances from the video show two power driven vessels in sight of eachother and that the ferry was the burdened one tasked with the actions to avoid collision which they do not appear to have taken until too late. The pleasure vessel operator’s failure was to have gone below which placed him in violation of the COLREGS but that fact in no way exonerates the ferry’s personnel to have not done what the rules mandate. Yes, the pleasure vessel operator shares blame for this but only a small percentage…perhaps 10 to 15% His failure only was made apparent because of the ferry’s failure and not independent from it.
what would you say if there had been fatalities on the pleasure vessel? there would be screaming at the lack of attention or wilful violations of the COLREGS on the ferry’s part. The yacht was only lucky the collision was not a severe one.[/QUOTE]
So like you c.captain to play the Reality Card in every discussion…
[QUOTE=freighterman;193315]Gcaptain forum should return to its rightful purpose …[/QUOTE]
I would hope that the purpose of this forum is to provide an alternative to counter the media voices who don’t know a stern from a bilge keel and who think that funny looking green boats own Puget Sound. Hell, even here where, of all places, members should be able to recognize the difference between a bow and a beam and should know that the yachtie did not ram the ferry but the ferry rammed the yacht despite all those pesky rules that they should have been able to recall from all those classes they took in the distant past.
Why do you think the newspapers and TV get it so badly wrong so regularly? Because even the professional forums pile on with the same absurd position that might makes right and yachties have no rights regardless of what the actual laws and rules might have to say about the matter. The fact that even when it has been made so clear that the WSF boat was wrong wrong wrong in every aspect of its operation related to this event there are still some here who want to hope beyond all reason that the ferry driver was not even more irresponsible than the stupid yachtie.
Even on this site a video about the incident still carries the title: Caught On Camera – Boater Crashes Into Washington State Ferry.
How can any of us complain about the same kind of hype and outright falsehoods we have come to expect from the media?
Did the ferry driver have a closed circuit view of conditions on the wheelhouse of that yacht? Did his seeing the yachtie taking a piss down below give him the right to ram the yacht? Which of those boat drivers is supposed to have the greatest command of the knowledge and training that you claim should be necessary before using WSF waters for personal pleasure?
The renewed clamor for licensing of pleasure boaters resulting from this event just took a big hit when the guy holding the highest license possible and is expected to exercise the skills that license is supposed to validate multiple times every single day didn’t know what he was supposed to do, or even worse, chose not to do what he was supposed to do because he is a “professional”. This event denigrates all of us who hold a professional license.
[QUOTE=Slick Cam;193319]Haha. I’m enjoying the banter, the squabbling, the grudge wielding, the scapegoating, and the excusing going on in this thread though![/QUOTE]
Please explain the terms grudge wielding and scapegoating in the context of this thread.
And yet no one comments about the caning idea. No muss, no fuss. No Admiralty courts. No USCG investigation. No warning letter, license suspension, no lawsuits. No wasted money on prisons, or home detention monitoring. You and you screwed up. 30 whacks with a lathi cane, each of you, in public. Case closed. Ah, but then no Twitter Industrial Complex. America’s Number One export, Manufactured Outrage, would dwindle…so sad… Now returning from alternate universe…
Everyone has an angle, a wrinkle, a bias. Its interesting discussion. If none of what I wrote fits you, well then, fair enough. It wasn’t aimed at anyone in particular. It was in reference (partially in jest) to someone’s previous comment decrying the amount of comments regarding this youtube accident.
Some people seem mad and blame the ferry. Some people seem mad and blame the yachtsman. Some seem they are trying to excuse the ferry. Also seems some old feelings about WSF are percolating in the thread. Surely you noticed.
[QUOTE=Slick Cam;193325] Also seems some old feelings about WSF are percolating in the thread. Surely you noticed.[/QUOTE]
I not only noticed, I made several comments about the WSF culture. That culture and its historical impact on ferry safety and economics is well documented. It is not opinion, it is observation. Your use of the term “old feelings” might be read by some as bearing a grudge or something. I would like to make it perfectly clear that my own connection with WSF system was through doing relief work while letting my MEBA shipping card move into “killer” territory. My experience was generally very pleasant and the exposure to the vessels added to my professional knowledge. It was a fun way to wait for a ship and working on the passenger only ferries was great sport with line handling included but far from a career path for an unlimited chief engineer with a love for steamboats.
I cannot deny that I was not and am not impressed favorably with what I saw as an institutional failure to recognize or approach the constant “maneuvering” mode of operation in the most professional manner. The cultural aspect of that fact reinforces the truism of familiarity breeds contempt or at the very least, complacence.
Perhaps one of the things that went through the ferry captain’s mind moments before he rammed the yacht was “Damn, they usually get out of the way by now!”
[QUOTE=freighterman;193324]And yet no one comments about the caning idea. No muss, no fuss. No Admiralty courts. No USCG investigation. No warning letter, license suspension, no lawsuits. No wasted money on prisons, or home detention monitoring. You and you screwed up. 30 whacks with a lathi cane, each of you, in public. Case closed. Ah, but then no Twitter Industrial Complex. America’s Number One export, Manufactured Outrage, would dwindle…so sad… Now returning from alternate universe…[/QUOTE]
I prefer a nice firing squad myself
imagine what a wonderful world it would be if Wall Street investment bankers would have been punished in such a fine manner after they crashed the economy? of course we know they will do it again now that oversight of “Too Big To Fail” banks goes out the window and along will come yet another bailout funded by us while the fat cats continue to get tens of millions in bonuses…EACH!
[QUOTE=Juan Cadiz;193296]It is fortunate that the CG and NTSB consider this sort of relevant fact over the bias that has dominated this thread. WSF=guilty, damn the circumstance!! LOL look elsewhere for expert opinion.[/QUOTE]
When the “official” forum report and video carries the sensationalist and very false headline “Caught On Camera – Boater Crashes Into Washington State Ferry” your comments ring true.
If factual reportage cannot be found on a forum by and of professional mariners how can any of us ever again question what is printed in the newspapers or regurgitated by a TV newsreader. When the majority of forum posts seem to support a set of fantasy rules that do not exist beyond their own imagination, how can anyone expect a journalism graduate to accurately report on a complex maritime incident. My own use of the term complex to describe the event is colored by the fact that so many are replacing the letter of the law with personal opinion and bias. It was not a complex incident, it was a case of the burdened vessel failing to perform the actions required by law.
While I have never worked / sailed in this area, I have spent a lot of time sailing in NY Harbor for many years.
As many of you know NY Harbor has had Ferries for many years running from Staten Island to Manhattan Island (New York City), so these ferries were very well know for running their course no matter of who got in their way. They used to blow the danger signal and keep steaming no matter what. I have been on Tugs towing a barge and have had to round up to avoid a collision. I guess the same mind set is in use in this area. These Ferries have the attitude that “we run this course all the time and you should know better than try to make us move / alter our course for you”. This mind set might have worked years ago before EVERYONE has a camera but now a days nothing or no one can get away with crap without someone getting it on their camera!
[QUOTE=Steamer;193099]The recreational vessel was the stand on vessel[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Lee Shore;193110]Yep. Most ferry captains operate this way, adhering to the “tonnage rule”… Unfortunately for them, there are no exemptions for ferries in the right of way rules.[/QUOTE]
In this case I’d say the “law of gross tonnage” applies. For those unaware, it’s a real rule.
Rule 2(a):
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including [B]the limitations of the vessels involved[/B], which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
I would say a small recreational vessel can never be a stand on vessel to something as large as a ferry and this scenario is an example of why that clause in the very beginning of the rules was put there.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;193662]In this case I’d say the “law of gross tonnage” applies. For those unaware, it’s a real rule.
Rule 2(a):
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including [B]the limitations of the vessels involved[/B], which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
I would say a small recreational vessel can never be a stand on vessel to something as large as a ferry and this scenario is an example of why that clause in the very beginning of the rules was put there.[/QUOTE]
If we accept the video at face value for the purpose of this discussion, please explain the limitations which would have prevented the ferry operator from backing down before hitting the stand on vessel.
[QUOTE=Lee Shore;193667]If we accept the video at face value for the purpose of this discussion, please explain the limitations which would have prevented the ferry operator from backing down before hitting the stand on vessel.[/QUOTE]
Rate of speed, stopping distance and maneuverability of the vessel.
Safety zone.
The rules of the road work together. You can’t cherry pick one rule and say its an absolute right and nothing else matters. The yacht, among other things, failed to take action in extremis which is negligent. The only thing more negligent than that was his decision to leave the bridge while his vessel was underway. That is such a disregard for safety and seamanship that it is doubtful he would be afforded any consideration in a court of law.
Opinions about the “culture” of the company are subjective, speculative, and therefor basically irrelevant.
[QUOTE=Juan Cadiz;193669]1. Rate of speed, stopping distance and maneuverability of the vessel.
2. Safety zone.[/QUOTE]
my GOD are you full of yourself or WHAT? here is a map of the ferry’s route. it was headed north on its route. there is no restrictions whatsoever in the waters to the east of that route to preclude the ferry from turning early in the crossing situation. besides, the safety zone around ferries is supposed to protect them from miscreants with ill intent…not to overrule the COLREGS
The rules of the road work together. You can’t cherry pick one rule and say its an absolute right and nothing else matters. The yacht, among other things, failed to take action in extremis which is negligent. The only thing more negligent than that was his decision to leave the bridge while his vessel was underway. That is such a disregard for safety and seamanship that it is doubtful he would be afforded any consideration in a court of law.
all fine…the operator of the pleasure vessel should not have left the controls HOWEVER you fail to realize that even though he did, if the ferry’s pilot had followed the COLREGS, that in extremis situation would not have even occurred!
Opinions about the “culture” of the company are subjective, speculative, and basically irrelevant.
I will comment all I want because I am not “reporting” this blatant ferry caused accident and not bound by having objectivity. My commentary here is based on more than 30years of experience operating vessels in all waters of the planet including on Puget Sound. Those comments and opinions are hardly irrelevant but a “mouthpiece” like you cares nothing for opinions that are not goosestepping with your party line that the “system” is just wonderful!
leave it to a footsoldier of the mafia to circle the wagons to protect their own from outside criticism…stand and take it I say! the ferry’s pilot was WRONG…PERIOD…SIR!
the ferry had no limitations in its ability to maneuver…no shoal waters, no narrow channel, no lack of ability to turn, slow or stop.
[QUOTE=Juan Cadiz;193669]Opinions about the “culture” of the company are subjective, speculative, and basically irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
Except when it causes an accident.
Is your opinion based on experience as a WSF crewmember, or an ISM auditor, or did you have another point to make? I think cCap showed how flawed and completely irrelevant points 1 and 2 comments are in real life.
Assessing Risk in the Washington State Ferry System
[QUOTE=Juan Cadiz;193669]1. Rate of speed, stopping distance and maneuverability of the vessel.
2. Safety zone.
The yacht, among other things, failed to take action in extremis which is negligent. The only thing more negligent than that was his decision to leave the bridge while his vessel was underway. That is such a disregard for safety and seamanship that it is doubtful he would be afforded any consideration in a court of law.[/QUOTE]
I agree that the yachtie demonstrated an egregious degree of stupidity.
Unfortunately for your argument, and as I have stated in an earlier post, the COLREGS do not assign liability on the basis of either stupidity, ignorance or tonnage . Their definition of what constitutes a stand on vessel and burdened one is clear.
The tonnage rule exists in the minds of ignorant amateurs who don’t know any better and of professional bullies who justify ignoring the COLREGS because they have a schedule to maintain.
I’ve had plenty of firsthand experience with both kinds and I’ve dodged plenty of ferry traffic while conducting surveys in a 50’ vessel displaying the correct signals for a vessel restricted in ability to maneuver as defined in the COLREGS. Having no desire to be dead right, I have broken off plenty of surveys to avoid in extremis situations to develop.
When in the vicinity of pleasure boaters, I automatically assume they have no idea that right of way rules exist and I prepare for the worst transgressions. It is my duty whether operating a pleasure craft or as a professional mariner entrusted with human lives.
If you show up in a court of law with your lame argument, you will leave a very disappointed man and if you had a license going in, I hope you don’t have one going out.
[QUOTE=c.captain;193673]
I will comment all I want because I am not “reporting” this blatant ferry caused accident and not bound by having objectivity.
.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Lee Shore;193687]
The tonnage rule exists in the minds of ignorant amateurs who don’t know any better.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, it is the ignorant amateurs that get creamed by the tonnage, because they didn’t have enough sense to preserve their well being. A moped cutting in front of a mack truck is a good example. Rules don’t really matter if you’re dead.
