You talking about the onboard leadership (top 4) or “guidance” from the office?
Actually, this brings up something I’ve always wondered about. As I’ve pretty much only worked for OSG and I’ve always heard this about box boats (great pay but good luck getting parts) , how exactly does that work? CE is reluctant to order or he orders but they just don’t send, or what?
In my experience, it is not that the parts aren’t being ordered at all. The issue is that most of the parts need to be sourced from Korea or another area of the world and typically have a 3-6 month lead time. The other issue is that most box boats are engaged on international voyages and do not spend a lot of time in the U.S. , if at all. Positioning parts to be delivered in particular ports can be difficult, and if you miss it on this port call, it will likely be at least a month or two until you circle back around.
Again, that is what I have observed with my company.
Cmakin has it about right. No one knows where the hell money at govt. level goes anymore, the whole treasury is treated like a slush fund where money is moved to and fro depending on someones latest speech before congress.
call me a pessimist but the whole system is breaking down if you’re paying attention.
I haven’t been on all the companies ships, but I think it’s purely a cultural difference. Box/RoRo always make excuses of “muh international voyage”, but that’s BS because at least once every 90 days they return to the same USA port and can load parts and stores. It’s just that the company is too cheap or the capt/chief are too scared/lazy to open up the company wallet (maybe bonuses??).
Also, Box/RoRo don’t give a damn about looks, just make sure the ship moves. There are no vetters to please.
It’s stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime, though. Big Blue box boat company won’t buy a 1500 plasma cutter, but instead will pay 5x that in overtime, oxy/acy gas, and grinding discs.
So stepping back, it just seems to be stupidity. Because it costs much more to not have the proper tools and spares aboard. But then again, MSP ships are fucking POS worn out clunkers that flag in for 5 years then sent off for scrap/etc. And you got people in office that earn 80k making million dollar decisions. In the rare case a true sailor ends up in the office, most have very short memory of what life at sea was like…and what is important vs bs paperwork.
Aren’t most US-flag ships in international trade foreign built, or have foreign made machinery?
Wouldn’t it be as easy, if not easier, to get spare parts in major foreign ports?
BTW; most ships are cross traders and may never come to the country where they were built, are registered, or where their owners/managers are situated.
They still manage to get spare parts, tools and stores, although there are complications at times, as you mentioned.
In my experience, even Jones act US built ships are just “Assembled in America, with Korean parts”. The Philly Shipyard tankers built over the last 20 years are almost all korean equipment, even the light and toilet paper fixtures in the head.
There you run into one of the peculiar laws endemic to the U.S. flag. A duty is assessed on parts and labor purchased and delivered in foreign countries for repair purposes. This is designed to make the U.S. operator keep these functions in U.S. ports using U.S. labor and materials, but it creates other obvious issues and conflicts of interest.
Everything is just a little bit different in the U.S. We just work within the system.
Yes this and several other peculiarities in US shipping may be explained by peculiar US maritime laws.
Like why US companies are beneficiary Owners of a large chunk of the world fleet (2.6%), while the US-flag fleet is large in number (3.88% mostly coastal), but small in DW (0.63%)
Maybe time to see if protectionism is the best answer to maintaining a large enough functioning fleet to ensure security? (In case there should be a WWII 2.0)
No need to “church it up.” It will simply be WWIII
I’m just a cog in the wheel and the wheel of governance in my country is positively stuck in a mire at the moment.
I think we can build it when we need it. I’m also not maintaining my Victory Garden at the moment, nor am I doing my part to ration gasoline. We didn’t have much shipbuilding capacity at all before the wars, shoot Modular shipbuilding didn’t even exist before Kaiser invented it. But given enough money I’m confident the Elon Musk type folks can start cranking out American ships if we needed them.
As one that ventures around euroland and USA, I can say that I have no big worries about starving or freezing in the USA. Can’t say the same for euroland.
Maybe it would have been smarter to have a fleet of ships that is in active trading and fully manned by qualified seafarers in active service?
I don’t know how long warning you expect there will be before a WWIII break out, but probably not enough to establish new shipyards, train shipyard workers/seafarers and build ships to meet the requirements.
PS> Don’t expect a WWIII to be a repeat of WWII, which it will NOT be.
With systems like QUICKSINK out there, I think our 80some ships are going to be reefs rather quickly, and half the people eligible to man the training facilities will be permeant residents of said reefs. The Graving docks are still there in Richmond CA, I’m sure there are plenty of other sites we could turn into yards pretty quick, ignoring some regulations in favor of wartime production.
With systems like MAD out there, I don’t think you have to worry too much about having ships to transport anything anywhere in case of WWIII. It’ll be over before a ship could cross an ocean, let alone build new ships.
What’s your solution? Without protectionism (Jones act and Government contracts) the US would not have a Merchant Marine to speak of. Not a single vessel would be build here or crewed by Americans.
Good question.
There are several high cost countries that have problems keeping shipowners from reflagging their ships to FOCs. There are not one single solution that suites everybody.
Keep on repeating the old mantra about “foreign countries pay subsidies, we don’t” and “third world slave labourers” is not a solution either.
I don’t think Panama pay subsidies to shipowners who register ships under their flag and OECD rules limits how much subsidies can be paid to shipbuilders. (Incl. through finance schemes)
Maybe you should ask yourselves:
- Why does US Shipowners register their fleets outside USA?
- What is MSP if not a system of paying subsidies to foreign shipping companies for registering some of their (older) ships under US flag?
- Why does foreign companies buy and operate US shipyards if not for subsidies (in one form or another) and a protected market?
- Has restriction on repairing US-flag ships at foreign yards helped getting more ships under US flag, or made US yards more competitive?
- Has restriction on buying spare parts directly from foreign suppliers, rather then shipping them to the US for some US 3rd party to mark up the price 100%, ever made any sense?
(Pls. add other points to the list if you have any)
One thing is for sure, doing the same as you have done for a hundred years without succeeding is not the solution.
Studying the various ways Japan and some European countries goes about keeping a viable fleet under their flag and maintaining shipyards in operation would be a good first step.
I understand what you are saying…
US Shipowners (deep sea) register their fleets outside the US purely for financial reasons. We both know that.
Correct. MSP is purely a subsidy system. MARAD even states on their website: " * The MSP program provides a retainer incentive to vessels in exchange for their availability during times of need" and even “MSP incentive is explicitly financial, in the form of a stipend”.
I agree it is for exactly that.
Yes I realize, the answer is no. MARAD even says: “foreign shipyards are still used for American-flag ship repairs since the cost of having repairs performed overseas and paying the duty is often lower than the cost of having the repairs performed in U.S. shipyards.”
100% Agreed.
Yes, the Jones act has spectacularly failed in protecting US influence in deep sea commercial trade.
Even on the owner/charterer side, only 6% of FOC tonnage is owned by US interests. But the Jones Act is protecting other things. It protects US coastal trade - Great Lakes/Mainland-PR-Hawaii-Alaska/GOM offshore/etc. And the MSP protects 60 deep sea vessels. And MSC contracts protect a handful more. I agree “Doing the same” will not bring back the US oceangoing fleet. But I (and many others on this forum) don’t have a solution.
I am not familiar with Japan and European countries having success with this. I would be very interested to know more. Please advise.
Apparently OSG has posted jobs in the MEBA halls for their currently foreign flagged tanker Sun Coast. Per their direction, the re-flagging will happen in January.
I’m sure they don’t want to do that without the TSP in place… Do they have an indication it will be online by then? Any insights @argonbeam?