Except there are not enough of those “experiences” to go around for all of the cadets at all of the schools.
Especially on US flag vessels. . .
Also a point to mention is that most cadets at the academies will not sail on their license. For many, having the license provides experience and an advantage over those coming from outside the industry. And yes, there are non-license programs at some of the schools, but that is kind of beside the point.
Plenty of opportunities for cadets on smaller vessels and in the oil patch.
Sailing foreign flag would be a good learning experience for American cadets.
If there are not enough American ships for American cadets to gain experience aboard, that might be an indication that there are too many schools and cadets.
I cannot agree with you more about the foreign flag experience for cadets, but it will never happen. So many US owned vessels that are NOT US flag. . . one of my KP classmates, unusual to be sure, sailed foreign flag soon after graduation and did well advancing his license. Also spent quite a bit of time afterwards with MSC and is now working ashore as a civilian for the Navy. I didn’t really get any exposure to FOC vessels until coming ashore and working for ABS. Quite an eye opener.
I didn’t really see the point. Many of the same concerns are there, whether deck or engine. I can say that when I started standing my first watches, while I had the ability and some experience going back to my cadet days, I would guess that I lacked the added comfort and confidence that more experience brings. I remember contemplating calling the Chief or 1st a couple of times when I saw a condition that I knew to be okay, but just wasn’t completely sure. In those instances, I let what I was trained to do and just keep an eye on them. That said, I think that would be the same for any newly minted licensed officer standing his first few watches, regardless of the training. Or at least the conscientious ones.
Again, most of those cadets will not sail on their license, but having the license and the experience of obtaining it provides them with a better foundation in the industry. The companies have to be willing to host, feed, train and pay (albeit cadet wages) those cadets in order for there to be spots for them.
Maybe at Kings Point but at the state academies most of them do sail on their license. They might only sail for 5-10 years then come ashore but they actually do ship out.
I don’t think that would give nearly as much bridge time but it also has the advantage of variety. Also, it’s three co-op work experiences and a senior cruise on the VOT training vessel.
I hear that the typical UK training model is 3 year for a “foundation degree” and license, or 4 years for an “honors degree” and license. The 4th year can also be done after sailing for a few years. I believe that the first year is classroom, and the second and third years are alternating periods of 50% cadet shipping, and 50% classroom. The 4th year is mostly academic liberal arts. I think the kids get at least 360 days of cadet shipping.
I’d like to see student exchange programs where most, if not all, American academy cadets would spend a year at foreign schools, 50% of that cadet shipping on foreign vessels. There would be enormous benefits to this.
Also, there would be enormous benefits to having large numbers of foreign maritime students attending American academies.
David? As I recall he mostly sailed on Liberian flag ships and worked his way up to Master. I think I heard that he is still sailing, but on small US vessels for the past 25 years.
For awhile there were quite a few US officers on U.K. flag tankers.
I have met quite a few foreign masters and chiefs who have married Americans and live in the US. Some of them are still sailing foreign.
If I were a young recent academy grad with no seniority in a good union, I would be sailing foreign to gain experience and quickly upgrade my license. The small money wouldn’t matter.
No, no one who posts here. I remember doing a riding ship survey of the old SS BRASIL when it was running out of New Orleans with Commodore Cruise Lines back in the mid/late 90s. The Safety Officer (one of two Chief Mates) was a Croatian living in Sacramento, CA.
I agree with your last. Actually, some of the best, most modern and sophisticated vessels that I dealt with during my years at ABS were not US flag. . . . .and I find that to be a damn shame, but certainly the topic of another thread.
Ah yes, the 12 days on bowdoin furiously filling out celestial nav problems and trying to not get too drunk in Halifax. It’s hardly a cruise and really just exists to get a mess of sign offs done. I did it too. It was however a lot of fun, some of the most fun I’ve had sailing in a while.
Personally I think mileage varies with the co-ops/cadet ships, but over 60 or more days three summers in a row you gain quite a bit of watch standing experience if you aren’t a shitbag.
Not to completely jack this thread, but I’d like to turn the cadet conversation on its head a little. My organization does basically all of its training at sea, which results in (among other things) “too many people on the bridge”. So what should be taught to cadets ashore, and what should be taught to them afloat?
Everything taught to academy students in the classrooms belongs in the classrooms, then they just need some guided training on how to actually apply that in practice. If you’re unfamiliar with academy training, rules of the road, plotting and chart work (t nav), the sailings and other complicated navigational math (t nav II), celestial navigation, electronic navigation and radar plotting, radio use and theory, electronic wave propagation, ship structure and construction, and medical care provider all should be taught in classrooms.
Obviously it isn’t a vacation cruise and no one has ever claimed it to be at any school, that’s just the industry term for it.
Yes, the whole purpose of any senior cruise is to get STCW sign offs done. The more students you have on the trip the longer the cruise would need to be though.
Yeah no shit it’s not a vacation cruise, I’m just saying in the sense of cruise for the unlimited license students or at any of the other schools it hardly is one. Even with the small number on board it’s hard in my opinion to make sure everyone shows the required level of competency during the trip. That and it’s less of a learning experience and more of a demonstration of skills, which isn’t what we are all getting at here. The fact that more time underway on commercial vessels is needed in most cases, and the SVO program’s set up does a pretty good job of that.
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Phoenix, the graduation data from SUNY says otherwise. There are plenty of graduates working in chartering, brokerage, marine insurance, and other fields directly out of school. Whether or not this applies to the other schools, I don’t know.
The college already sends cadets out foreign flag, this is not a new idea. There is no requirement that their cadet time be done on a US vessel. The fact again - the companies must be willing to foot the bill of hosting a cadet. They are not forced into taking students. The students already pay the school for this (tuition and maintenance not given to those companies) and there is competition for the most coveted billets. The cadet ship is an option in place of 2nd class cruise for those students that are really sure they want to sail on their license, or want to get that experience. It’s not mandatory on purpose.
And as far as foreign students go, SUNY has long had foreign students among its population. The benefit to sending US students in exchange? Probably negative as the USCG does not recognize courses taken outside of the US, effectively making the program longer. This is something the non-license programs do have as an option, IIRC.
Much of the criticism of the way these programs work (any of the maritime academies) or how they need to change comes from people that did not attend the particular institution, for whatever reason. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. In the end, you graduate with a license and you either use it or you don’t. Expecting new mates to be proficient at everything right away is wishful thinking. That comes with experience and guidance from their shipmates. But then again, I’m sure everyone walked on their first ship knowing everything there is to know because they were perfect.
Only at SUNY, we’re not talking about any one specific school.
Personally I think it’s bullshit to graduate license holders that have never worked on a commercial vessel.
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That may be, however, there are not enough ships to go around, and not everyone wants to sail on that license. Atleast with SUNY the proximity to shoreside positions is huge, and having that license is an asset. If we had 500-1,000 ships that could (and would agree to) take all these cadets on as observers that would be great, but we don’t. When I was there, not everyone that wanted to cadet ship got to go due to lack of availability. And MSC took a lot of the cadets. So instead of these pie in the sky dreams, we should face reality of the options we have.
And case in point, I’d rather deal with someone in the office that at least knew what I went through to get that license, than a manager with a business degree from a non-maritime school. There’s a lot to be said for shared experience.
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