I replied to Steamer but you seem to be pushing the KP issue pretty strong so… . The incident DID not happen at the School, it happened on a US Flag Merchant Ship and it could well have been an OS or a Third who was the victim rather than a cadet. Hard to say how you can hold the school responsible unless, and we don’t know this, she reported it to school officials right after it happened. With email and texts available almost everywhere anymore since the crews demand that benefit it is a legit question. With he USCG now fully engaged in this issue we’ll see a flurry of regulation that maybe was necessary and missing and maybe should have been done in 2016. The question will be the responsibility of the companies and unions and what will the Vessel Master be required to report and investigate similar to alcohol or drug and other incidents that happen on the vessel. But back to KP; I ask, please explain how $1.5 billion, and it will be PLUS by the time they get done, for training ships is such a great value.
Probably because they will be available for any emergency/disaster relief on short notice. Just a wild ass guess…
Capt.TimD
With all due respect to a senior mariner. I have no beef with KP. I am very disappointed in the findings of the report. That’s what this thread is about. The terrible incident of the Cadet being raped is not covered in the report. The report was commissioned by congress and performed by an independent expert ( not so sure I agree but that’s another point) agency. Why are you blasting me about the Midshipman X rape? I think you should go to the other thread and make your case on why its not as big a deal for KP and why its in the capable hands of the USCG now. As far as the report. I think you would do well to click the link and grab a cocktail and digest the info. It will be more relevant for an alumni who can either agree or not with the observations. I have talked to many who seem to think its more right than wrong and hope for an infusion of additional funding to improve the situation.
As far as your question on the $1.5 Billion for training ships. I am a firm believer that the right approach would be a blended program with Sea Year and Training ship time. I think it would give KP Mids more time back in the academic year to relieve some of the academic pressures. I think Schuyler is a short hop across LI sound and their ship will be docked for at least half the year and could be used to get under way fairly easily with minimal logistic challenges. That is my two cents. Most of the State schools have a hybrid model now with some training ship days and some cadet sea year days. It may be a better mouse trap.
I think investing over a 5-10 year period in five new ships to support 60-80 percent of the newly licensed MM officers is not a bad idea and offers optionality for use for KP as well.
I will not make the case that these ships can be used for emergency support during disasters because that is self evident.
I hope I have clarified my point of view and I hope that KP gets the funding necessary to resolve the plethera of issues identified by this report and reported on by so many national news agencies.
Such as the use of the Hospital ship sent to NY. Great value there. They had to come up with something to justify giving state schools, that are for profit, Federal government assistance at a high dollar amount. I hope the State schools now receiving such wonderful largess do not charge out of state fees to students from somewhere besides the state in question because we all are funding those places.
The Academy has been underfunded since well before I arrived there in 1972. The school operated on scraps compared to Annapolis or West Point or even Coast Guard. I do have to admit that I see the benefit of a school ship for some of the training since I work the summer cruise of the State Of Michigan for Great Lakes Maritime Academy. It really does give the new students, new to sailing since many GLMA cadets are starting a second career, an easier break-in as to what they might expect commercial.
Is the GLMA training cruise still one summer cruise after the first year with an emphasis on river trips?
Comparing KP to Annapolis, West Point, or even the CG Academy is the root of the issue. Militarization of the MERCHANT MARINE academy has minimized the merchant marine component of the school.
It is not, never was, and never should have been a quasi military training center for baby grunts or zoomies. The fact that the place has been managed by admirals instead of civilian mariners is why it has failed.
If the place is not demilitarized and opened to current mariners it should be sold to developers or turned over to the state just like all the other military bases that have outlived their purpose.
Bravo. What US maritime service does this institution serve? There is no US maritime service any more. Since KP is paid for by taxpayers let them provide free upgrade or license training for working mariners rather than provide a free college education to many which never sail or fullfill their military obligation.
Capt
The best thing is to work to address the funding. I must say when your in the systems as a mid you are really blind to the governance and more systemic flaws the report highlights.
We can build a better system and improve training for everyone, provide better prepared cadets as the enter the fleet and ensure those cadets are more productive and immersed in the industry using the sea year days as they prepare to graduate. Sea year is where they get a good feel for ops, cargo, boxes etc. Engineers could gain a lot from immersive time on training ships then onto their sea year days. I think these new ships being built are state of the art for motor licenses. The days of steam are dwindling rapidly. I would say some of the state academy grads had minimal diesel experience( better steam experience) in the past and that hurt them on day one on their first ship. Especially Schuyler, but that will change quickly with these new ships. Medium speed are a different animal than slow speed, so that will need to come from sea year days.
Anyway all the best and Happy Holidays to all on the forum.
I still wonder how many students in the State Schools are in the license track. These schools offer much more than training as a maritime officer, and I believe that those on a license track are in the minority. I agree that a Sea Year offers invaluable experience, and I know that first hand. But. . .until there is a revitalization of the US Merchant Marine, there are far fewer opportunities for cadet shipping, at least on US Flag vessels, beyond the MSC.
Pretty much but dealing with Covid and the restrictions some of the shipping companies had presented issues for students getting sea time so the cruises have been extended and the State runs 6 months straight.
To reiterate. The USMA has two problems. 1. There is no US maitime to support. 2. The agrrement upon accepting free education is they serve in at least a reserve position in the US Navy. Many do not fulfil that obligation. This annoys the hell out of me. They are not prosecuted as USAF USNA or USMA are for not fulfilling their obligations. Shut down the place.
I can only speak from my experience and knowledge of quite a few cadets/mids that graduated with my son. Majority of his inner circle went MSC. Many of his football friends are honoring the military commitment. They are lieutenants in the Naval Reserve and serving well. A number of them are nearby in different departments. As I said, I can’t speak for the fellows you claim are not honoring the commitment.
.As a hawespiper, I was on the early bandwagon shitting on KP. That mindset changed a few decades ago.
No need to shit on KP, the taxpayer needs to flush it. We don’t need to pay for grunts, zoomies, football coaches or container terminal clerks.
We need to support the US Merchant Marine and working mariners.
Expected nothing less from you Steamer…Terminal clerks? I beg to differ. We are doing much better than west coast container ports due to logistics and a better plan. Do your research before belittlling everything in your path.You perhaps missed the point that the people I am associated with are honoring their promise and doing well. If that gets under your skin, your problem, not mine. I do agree we need to support the US Merchant Marine.
I know people are tied emotionally to Kings Point/ USMMA and it is a great deal if used for the free education (if you can stand the 4 years of military style environment). BUT in reality it should be shut down. Looking at it from and objective standpoint there is nothing that justifies keeping the school open. Here is the following justification/ summary of points
- There is no US fleet to support all the fresh graduates with their license
- Students are willing to pay for their education and get the certifications to sail from state maritime academies so no need for free schooling from a federal academy
- A large portion of students at Kings Points go into the military, there is no reason they can’t attend a US military academy or complete a ROTC program at a state college
- Taking the yearly funding of 90.5 million from KP to the MSP program would increase the US fleet by 17 ships! Also you could sell the Kings Point properties and use the funds for port infrastructure or lease the lands and used the profits for another MSP slot!
- Lastly and most importantly taking students onboard commercial ships that don’t want to be a part of the US Merchant Marine is just irresponsible and dangerous
I know for sure California Maritime, Mass Maritime, and Maine Maritime Academy already offer their license programs and some of their other programs at in state or reduced out of state prices. Depends on the state the student lives and the Academy they are applying too.
Look into the following
CMA -Western Interstate Commission for higher Education
(Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming)
Both MMAs- New England Board of Higher Education
(Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Vermont)
NYM also offers in-state tuition to most East Coast states, provided they do not have an SMA already. There are also multiple scholarship paths available to NYS residents to fully fund a student’s tuition, as well as ROTC and SSO Reserve program if a student wanted those routes as well.
There’s no reason or need for KP to offer undergrad education. The funds should be split amongst the 6 SMAs, specifically earmarked to support their license programs. The KP campus could make a great northeast training center for mariner continuing education and training.
For New York, “in-region” tuition is for Alabama, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Puerto Rico, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Virginia and Washington, D.C.