They aren’t the brightest animal out there. But when they see one of their bretheren laying dead they scatter. (If only temporarily) But they DO learn to stay away from danger.
This ‘catch and release’ the NATO ships are doing is ridiculous. While I agree with the concept of LRAD, there is nothing like the exclamation point of a .50 cal down range to get MY point of view across.
Too bad we are trying to ‘take their feelings’ into account here. Or that they have no regional government to exert control over them. When they are out to sea, it IS surval of the fittest, and NOT the most PC.
Kill 'em all. Let God sort them out.
There was a reason that the original answer to pirates was hanging. It is final, and allows no ‘relapse.’ PC be damned.
This is a little off subject but it occurred to me that there are some maritime subjects that are linked to certain “hot button” social issues. If you don’t understand the link it is a little puzzling.
An example is the discussion about arming ship’s crews after the Alabama incident. I was against the arming of crews on practical grounds. I’d rather have outside teams. However there was a lot of discussion that opposition to arming crews was some kind of anti-gun political correctness. In my case nothing could be further from the truth. I have more guns here at the house then I do on the ship when I transit the GOA/HOA. I never pass up a chance to fire a few practice rounds of what ever the security team will let me.
It turns out that I wasn’t the only one, today nobody is calling for armed crews. There was never any link between anti-gun PC and the reluctance to arm crews. Anyone who knows my situation with my crews the way I do would understand why I don’t want them running around on deck armed with loaded weapons.
My point is I think making links between certain “hot button” issues and current maritime affairs should be avoided.
Why should anyone care? We eliminated piracy in the 18th century by killing pirates whenever and wherever they could be caught. No one asked about their home life or how they got to be pirates. They were very publicly and really gruesomely dispatched to provide an example for anyone else who thought playing pirate was better than the alternatives.
[QUOTE=ooCiepheh7;57520]Why should anyone care?.. No one asked about their home life or how they got to be pirates… [/QUOTE]
You are missing the point. It boils down to this. Consider these two statements:
Know your enemy.
and
Have empathy and compassion for your enemy.
Those two statements have very different meanings. The first statement is an ancient military precept. Trying to conflate the two statements just muddies the waters.
Not the issue. These ‘enemy’ are not representative of a government, or a recognized organization. They are purely in it for the personal profit.
From an outsiders point of view this is the same culture as the drug cartels, the mafia, and thugs.
One does not have to ‘know ones enemy’ to realize that in this case the enemy will not respond to cajoling, pleading, begging or diplomacy. This is terrorism for personal gain. I could even see negotiation if this were about a religious or territorial battle. But this is about personal greed. that is not something that is negotiated.
[QUOTE=cappy208;57536]Not the issue. These ‘enemy’ are not representative of a government, or a recognized organization. They are purely in it for the personal profit.
From an outsiders point of view this is the same culture as the drug cartels, the mafia, and thugs.
One does not have to ‘know ones enemy’ to realize that in this case the enemy will not respond to cajoling, pleading, begging or diplomacy. This is terrorism for personal gain. I could even see negotiation if this were about a religious or territorial battle. But this is about personal greed. that is not something that is negotiated.[/QUOTE]
Yes, understood. But this is the straw man. Nobody but nobody is advocating cajoling or pleading etc, nobody. It’s a freaking stawman argument.
There are right now “low and slow” ships transiting the GOA/HOA area with no armed security, no adequate arrangements to harden the ship and no adequate citadel. The reason they do this is because the ship owner/operator has a spread sheet in which they have calculated the cost of insurance and made the business decision that the potential profit was worth the risk. Nobody is under the illusion that the crew can negotiate their way out of an attack.
Someone might reasonable ask what about the crew. In fact, these owners do not care what happens to crews, at all.
I was referring to the ‘official’ NATO EUFOR patrols and the (from what I see is )official response. I have seen video of them ‘disarming’ and letting them go, spanking their hand is not the solution.
This is not the job of the crews. This should be done (as it was in the barbary wars) by straight military intervention. Harsh, fatal, lopsided, retribution. No PC needed.
I believe when enough of their members don’t come home they (the actual pirates, and their enablers) will quit this. But this hasn’t happened yet.
Even last week a ship was hijacked off Nigeria. Monkey see monkey do.
The video of a Russian military unit in a mothership was most poignant. They intercepted, boarded, found a cache of AK47s, handcuffed the gang of about 25 to the boat, planted explosives on a timer and departed. The best part is they “leaked” the video. Viola… Not one more Russian ship has been hijacked!
[QUOTE=cappy208;57540]
This is not the job of the crews. This should be done (as it was in the barbary wars) by straight military intervention. Harsh, fatal, lopsided, retribution. No PC needed.
[/QUOTE]
Hear hear!
The recently published photograph of pirates tossing an RPG over the side of a skiff while running from a naval patrol only made me wonder why they used a camera instead of an automatic weapon.
Well, seems like I am running into less familiar waters…
The approach in countries like the U.S. and the E.U. is to follow the rule of law. Any individual within that system has little to gain and a lot to lose by going the Dirty Harry route. On the other hand in countries where there is less respect for the rule of law individuals can get away with a great deal more.
Of course people recognize that catch and release is a problem but everyone wants someone else to solve it. EU countries do not want the pirates in their justice systems as they are not set up to handle it. There was a plan to have the richer countries pay Kenya to jail them but that plan fell through.
I think the bottom line is that politicians in the U.S. and the EU do feel any pressure to solve the problem.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;57544]
I think the bottom line is that politicians in the U.S. and the EU do feel any pressure to solve the problem.
[/QUOTE]
typo??
There is the problem of being respected by our (and other respectable Nations) laws. But your post about ‘knowing your enemy’ is when it is a conventional war, and all sides are respecting the geneva conventions. This is decidedly NOT one of those instances. This is not even guerrilla warfare. This is a different animal. Personally, I think this would have already been dealt with effectively if the problem was silently, simply ‘taken care of’
There is the problem of being respected by our (and other respectable Nations) laws. But your post about ‘knowing your enemy’ is when it is a conventional war, and all sides are respecting the geneva conventions. This is decidedly NOT one of those instances. This is not even guerrilla warfare. This is a different animal. Personally, I think this would have already been dealt with effectively if the problem was silently, simply ‘taken care of’
There is confusion as to whether the pirates were actually killed. BUT. perception is the key. And it is probably more effective being unknown![/QUOTE]
Well Cappy …I did see that about the Russians. I have been transiting the GOA/HOA area on a regular basis for over ten years now, starting before the pirates become a problem. I consider myself to be relativity well informed.
As far as warfare … I do have Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Martin Van Creveld and Liddell Hart on my bookshelf and have read them but my level of understanding is decidedly amateur.
Having said that, it does seem to me, that the perception of people who are not familiar with the situation, is that it is similar to conventional warfare, ie a matter of finding and sinking pirate ships, but to me, it seems like more of a insurgency where the pirates can hide among and disguise as fisherman.
BTW Knowing your enemy is usually attributed to Sun Tzu
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle”
KC: So you are saying that it is normal for small 20 to 25’ open skiffs to roam around the ocean, with NO fishing gear, to shadow commercial ships, and close on them? And it is somehow NOT OK to open fire? Under these repetitive circumstances, If it were MY ship, My .50 Browning would be trying to ignite the 55 gl drums of gas at, say for example, half a mile or so. Sure, warning shots, then ‘katie hold the door.’ I find it hard to believe that fishermen in the area don’t know about the pirates, and would know better than to mimic this suspect behavior. Those that don’t… well Darwin will soon take care of them!
[QUOTE=cappy208;57572]KC: So you are saying that it is normal for small 20 to 25’ open skiffs to roam around the ocean, with NO fishing gear, to shadow commercial ships, and close on them? And it is somehow NOT OK to open fire? [/QUOTE]
Hey cappy, it might be that they feel kind of inadequate because they come from a poor place and nobody seems to like them much. Maybe they feel that if they hang around those great big ships full of rich people and valuable stuff some of it might rub off on them and boost their self esteem. We need to understand that the people on those skiffs might just be there to absorb the ambience for a screenplay or a poem or something.
It is not nice to stereotype them as spawn of feral desert swine just because they hijack the occasional ship or murder a few yachties once in a while.
Yes. There an estimated 6000 fishing skiff in the Gulf of Aden and the coast of Somalia . As far as the open ocean the fishing skiffs are towed by larger vessel much like the schooners and dory system of the Grand Banks in the 1800s. Pirates hijack these vessels and use them
Here is a little cut and paste work:
Two types of vessels are engaged in fisheries for longtail tuna. One type is the traditional design dhow constructed of wood ranging in length from 10 to 25 m. These vessels are powered by inboard diesel engines of 33–240 HP. The other type is the planing hull skiff constructed of glass-reinforced plastic (GRP) ranging in length from 5 to 9 m. These skiffs are powered by outboard engines of 25 to 120 HP.
Most small boats in the area are legal fishing boats. This is in particular the case south of Aden and southeast of Mukalla. Those fishing skiffs are using aggressive manoeuvres and weapons might be seen, as these fishermen occasionally also are victims to armed robbery
There are typically around 6000 small fishing skiffs off the coast of Somalia and in the region, with an additional many hundred larger fishing vessels (similar to dhows) in the region. It is very difficult to tell the difference between a fishing vessel and a pirate vessel, all of the vessels look the same.
[I]"It is very difficult to tell the difference between a fishing vessel and a pirate vessel, all of the vessels look the same. "[/I]
Are you saying that innocent fishermen carrying RPGs, AKs, grappling hooks and ladders but no fishing gear might follow merchant ships and close on them for perfectly innocent fishery related purposes?
I made a trip from Suez to Lobito. We were warned about pirates and this was 1971. There were no encounters. I have seen pangas “challange” us on survey, towing and salvage vessels from West Africa to the South Pacific protecting their long lines and drift nets on several occasions. I can understand the trepidation.
[QUOTE=Steamer;57583][I]"It is very difficult to tell the difference between a fishing vessel and a pirate vessel, all of the vessels look the same. "[/I]
Are you saying that innocent fishermen carrying RPGs, AKs, grappling hooks and ladders but no fishing gear might follow merchant ships and close on them for perfectly innocent fishery related purposes?[/QUOTE]
No, I’m saying it is difficult to tell innocent fisherman from pirates.
Also I am not sure that all the vessels out there fit neatly into one category or the other. Obviously the pirates are trying to avoid detection by naval forces. The more closely they resemble fishing vessel the less likely they are to be detected. Many fishing vessel do carry weapons for protection.
In the Gulf of Aden during nice weather it is common to encounter 50 to 100 or maybe more skiffs along the IRTC. I believe some are fishing for tuna, they are fast and tend to ziz-zag unpredictable including sometimes closing on the ship. These boats are responsible for lots of frantic calls from merchant ships thinking they are under attack. The naval ships respond by sending a helo and pirates will strike elsewhere.
As far as trying to identify pirates from the ship, I think that if the skiff is close enough to be able to see they have an RPG you are likely already inside the range of that weapon.
From the air the big giveaway was the ladder. Now I understand they hide them under tarps or use grapple hooks instead. which are easier to hide.
BTW you don’t have to take my word on this, just google some appropriate terms, there is lots of material on the net.
It is difficult to tell the innocent fisherman from the pirates in some areas. I suspect that more than one fishing skiff has been shot at off the Coast of Oman, judging from the reports. I can also tell you that when you are out in the middle of nowhere (not the IRTC, Gulf of Aden, Bab el Mandeb or coastal areas of Oman, Yemen and Djibouti) and you see a skiff, he’s not there for the tuna. Other ways to tell - aggressive approachs, firing weapons at the ship, holding up weapons, ladders in the skiff, etc. More than once when transiting in some of the above areas, I’ve turned and commented to the security guy on watch that “that guy would have earned himself a bullet if we were anywhere else.” The trick is having the local area knowledge and communication with your security detail. Shoot first, ask questions later is a recipe for a dank dark cell in a 3rd world country.
