Unarmed Australian security "team", and crew of Liquid Velvet, captured by pirates

Professional Mariner Forum
21

[QUOTE=Steamer;57371]Who cares?..

It is not the job of a security team or the military to understand what motivates pirates. They simply need to given the means to eradicate the threat.[/QUOTE]

What? You lost me with the blind monkeys.

.
I agree that the people at the point of the spear so to speak do not need to understand what motivates pirates. However people who wish to suppress or eradicate piracy need to understand where to best apply their efforts. My point is that the idea that increasing the risk of death at sea will be an effective means of reducing the threat relies upon assumptions about incentives and disincentives faced by the pirates.

Another point is that once the pirates break off an attack it is not the job of shipboard security team to suppress or eradicate piracy, it is their job to keep that ship safe.

K.C.

22

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;57409]What? You lost me with the blind monkeys.

Another point is that once the pirates break off an attack it is not the job of shipboard security team to suppress or eradicate piracy, it is their job to keep that ship safe.

[/QUOTE]

Even a blind monkey can recognize a pirate when one comes over the rail or fires an RPG at the wheelhouse.

As one who wishes to suppress or eradicate piracy, I believe our efforts should be applied directly to the physical embodiment of those involved. Those efforts should produce immediate and predictable results. A Somali who goes pirating should consider his actions as identical to skydiving without a parachute, there is a microscopic chance of living through the experience but historically it is a really bad idea.

If the security team can convince the pirates to “break off” by destroying their vessel or killing that last one standing then they can consider the ship safe (for the moment) and those pirates “suppressed” forever. A dead pirate is no longer a threat.

The military is even better at eliminating a threat. It is fairly safe to say that the Iraqi troops fleeing west on Highway 80 had been suppressed, the were chased out of Kuwait. The followup action by US forces made sure they stayed suppressed. What is different about the pirates that they deserve special treatment?

23

KC’s point about motivation still stands. We don’t know what dives them to piracy. If they are executed for returning empty handed and are executed if they refuse to go out, then killing them well not deter their buddies. Without knowing their motivations (poverty or terrorism or fear of a terrorist with a gun) we cannot plan how to end piracy. It may not be as simple as you say.

Additionally, a ships security team cannot chase them down and finish them off. Their duty is protecting their ship, not killing pirates. That should be a military duty, and pirates should be treated like terrorists.

24

[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;57411] We don’t know what dives them to piracy. [/QUOTE]

Why should anyone care? We eliminated piracy in the 18th century by killing pirates whenever and wherever they could be caught. No one asked about their home life or how they got to be pirates. They were very publicly and really gruesomely dispatched to provide an example for anyone else who thought playing pirate was better than the alternatives.

We seem to have forgotten a lot of history.

25

Do you ever read more than one line of a post? Killing some pirates won’t dissuade anyone from piracy if the alternatives are being shot for not being a pirate by some organization on shore forcing them to be pirates. I dont think we should let them go or not kill them, but don’t assume that it will necessarily do anything other than kill some impoverished somalis.

26

[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;57426]Do you ever read more than one line of a post? [/QUOTE]

Yep, I read every line. I answered your apology for the pirates with an explanation that their rationale is irrelevant. Sooner or later the survivors on the beach will get tired of being murdered by their own neighbors and do something to clean up that cesspool. In the meantime we shouldn’t have to suffer them infesting the sea lanes. Somali poverty is not the fault of shipping companies and seafarers so that dog doesn’t hunt either.

As far as your other comments that you couldn’t see I already answered, read post #22. No one said a ship security team should "chase down’ pirates, just let them kill as many as possible and if they take out the pirate vessel in the process of defending the ship then so much the better. Keep shooting until the threat is eliminated, that is how you assure at least temporary “security.”

27

Piracy has throughout history been supported by governments of one form or another. One of the first famous successes of the US Marine Corps and the Navy was in an effort to stop piracy. The Corps hymn " the shores of Tripoli" refers to this famous action. Countries such as Somalia support piracy and there are a limitless number of pirates available from there.History has proven it is logistically and financially impossible to escort every ship in order to prevent piracy which is why countries have gone to war with the sponsors to halt piracy. Somalia is especially screwed up as there is no real functioning government, they are a truly libertarian country, so who you going to put out of power? I doubt seriously if any country is willing to invade and control that god awful place to prevent piracy. Insurance rates will just continue to go up.

28

Somali pirates aren’t being forced at gunpoint into skiffs - it is seen as a sign of status to be chosen for the opportunity. Read “The Pirates of Somalia” by Jay Bahadur - it’s enlightening as to the thought processes of the pirates. I don’t agree with his conclusions or the pirates rationale for piracy, but it is part of “knowing your enemy.”

As for security teams on merchant vessels being tasked with eradicating the pirates during a pirate attack, I don’t think they’d have much of an issue with it. Unfortunately, as has been stated, that’s not why they are there. The security team’s job is to prevent the vessel from being boarded and hijacked. If they can manage that by standing on teh bridgewing and being seen, that’s how it’s done. If it takes lighting off an LRAD, that’s how it’s done. If it takes a few warning shots, that’s how it’s done. If it takes several hundred rounds down range, that’s how it’s done. There isn’t a captain in the world or a security team worth it’s salt that’s going to advocate circling around to “finish the job.” The concern is the “one in a million” shot that injures or kills someone or damages the vessel and cargo.

If we (society as a whole) want to jump on the bandwagon of executing pirates, it would have to be the job of the military. Having seen MV Kelly Chouest in Salalah, Oman recently with several mounted weapons and many go-fasts under tarps, I suspect here is something to the rumours that there is a special forces team operating in the Gulf of Aden. Unfortunately, their success is apparently being limited by the area to be covered. In the meantime, we as an industry have to accept that armed security is currently successful 100% of the time.

29

Steamer: My pont is only that we dont know if killing them will deter more pirates. I never “apologized” for them and I never said we should not kill any (and every) pirate attempting to board a merchant vessel. Your rabid frothing at the mouth has clouded your thinking.

Tengineer: The orriginal reason the US Navy was founded was to protect US shipping from pirates…

30

[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;57432]My point is only that we don’t know if killing them will deter more pirates.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is time to find out. The fact that killing pirates in the act removes those pirates from the equation is a very good start.

We already know that a dead pirate isn’t going to board another ship and murder or kidnap another seafarer and that should be our only concern. Leave the nation building and social engineering to others.

31

I second your remarks on Jay Bahadur, haven’t read the book yet but he also has blog atjaybahadur.com here

As for your remarks about 100 success rate, from Jay Bahadur’s blog:

Though no vessel employing armed security has yet been hijacked, I am not quite as sanguine as Pelton about the impending end of piracy off Somalia. The pirates have demonstrated an uncanny penchant for adapting to the measures that shipping companies and the naval forces have thrown at them, and the hitherto quiet start to Pirate Season 2011-12 could simply be an ebb before the next torrent. The next evolution of pirate tactics could very well be to come out guns blazing, armed guards be damned.

There are captain and crews that are sleeping good at night in the GOA/HOA region because they have armed security teams aboard but, if they understood the quality of some of the teams, they wouldn’t be sleeping as good.

K.C.

32

“clouded thinking” The only clouds are the ones blocking the vision of those who think that poverty and greed are sufficient justification for murder and kidnapping.

In response to your “foaming at the mouth” comment, trying to invalidate my position by that kind of response tells us much more about your own reaction to other opinions and ideas than it does to provide good reasons why mine are not legitimate.

It looks like one ship’s crew had the right idea anyway. The pirates must have been pretty clumsy as they all seem to have fallen over the side as the crew retook their vessel.

http://news.yahoo.com/crew-recapture-taiwan-ship-somali-pirates-074644550.html

I doubt that any of the pirates were asked if they had personal problems that lead them to go pirating or were offered counseling services before they fell over.

And while the article linked below is old, I think it might show how peasants respond to being forced to become pirates. Since there are probably few shrinks in Somalia to help them through the trauma of poverty and ignorance, and being forced to share in the ransom, they have to find some way to soothe their pain. I suppose a big house, a couple of Mercedes, and a third trophy wife are a start.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7650415.stm

33

[QUOTE=Steamer;57438]“clouded thinking” The only clouds are the ones blocking the vision of those who think that poverty and greed are sufficient justification for murder and kidnapping.

In response to your “foaming at the mouth” comment, trying to invalidate my position by that kind of response tells us much more about your own reaction to other opinions and ideas than it does to provide good reasons why mine are not legitimate.

It looks like one ship’s crew had the right idea anyway. The pirates must have been pretty clumsy as they all seem to have fallen over the side as the crew retook their vessel.

http://news.yahoo.com/crew-recapture-taiwan-ship-somali-pirates-074644550.html

I doubt that any of the pirates were asked if they had personal problems that lead them to go pirating or were offered counseling services before they fell over.

And while the article linked below is old, I think it might show how peasants respond to being forced to become pirates. Since there are probably few shrinks in Somalia to help them through the trauma of poverty and ignorance, and being forced to share in the ransom, they have to find some way to soothe their pain. I suppose a big house, a couple of Mercedes, and a third trophy wife are a start.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7650415.stm[/QUOTE]

Steamer, you are arguing with a straw man. The point is that even if we are able to raise the kill rate at sea it it may not reduce piracy. The idea that raising the kill rate will reduce piracy is an assumption. It was stated here that if the pirates see one of their buddies killed the others will go home. That may or may not be true.

At the beginning of the American Civil War it was widely assumed on both sides that the war would be short with few causalities. That assumption turned out to be incorrect. Now if I was to live at that time I might point out to people that their assumptions may be incorrect. How much sense would it make if they in turn were to counter argue that I was offering counseling services? None I think.

BTW Steamer, most of your post are excellent, but on this one I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

K.C.

Edit - When it comes to ship security the question is not what motivates the pirates but how motivated are they. If the motivation is very low hardening the ship might be adequate. If they are highly motivated it may take a 50 cal round in the eye. As captain I am prepared to do what ever it takes to keep the ship safe.

34

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;57435]
There are captain and crews that are sleeping good at night in the GOA/HOA region because they have armed security teams aboard but, if they understood the quality of some of the teams, they wouldn’t be sleeping as good.
[/QUOTE]
No doubt you are correct on the differing qualifications for security teams. As it is, we’ve had the same company for over two years and the quality of the teams we get is incredibly high. We’re averaging an “incident” every 5 months or so, and it is diffcult to maintain a high level of security without becoming complacent in between. It takes constant effort on both the crew’s part and the security team’s part to maintain a good watch.

I would also agree with you 100% that the Somali pirates are adaptable and will do everything they can to counteract both the armed security and the safe room concept. Here’s hoping that we are thinking enough moves ahead - as I’m wont to say, “I know I’m paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?”

35

[QUOTE=RichMadden;57443] “I know I’m paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?”[/QUOTE]

Good one. I have an internal governor on my paranoid engine that keeps it at the proper level. However if I have a long hard trip it sometimes starts to “hunt” a little when it is under load.

K.C.

36

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;57439]The point is that even if we are able to raise the kill rate at sea it it may not reduce piracy. The idea that raising the kill rate will reduce piracy is an assumption. It was stated here that if the pirates see one of their buddies killed the others will go home. That may or may not be true.[/QUOTE]

What I am saying is that to date, the shipping industry has not been permitted to find out. So far (with a few notable exceptions) the pirates are the only ones sailing in the region who have any assurance of protection. No merchant ship is going to get a warship escort to their home port like pirates so often do.

Let’s let every ship’s master and shipowner/operator decide for himself the level of protection he wishes to put in place and the limits of its application. Let’s let each security detail decide the rules of engagement and give them the legal protection to perform as they see fit. Sooner or later skiff loaded with skinny guys carrying ladders and assault rifles will stay away from merchant ships … isn’t that the objective anyway?

As far as a pirate going home after seeing one of his buddies turned into fish food, if they go home and stay there whacking pirates will be shown to be a deterrent. If they don’t then the security folks will have another volunteer target won’t they?

37

[B]The “Marque and Reprisal” approach…[/B]

"In October 2001, Ron Paul, U.S. representative from Texas,[U]introduced bills H.R. 3074[/U], Air Piracy Reprisal and Capture Act of 2001, and H.R. 3076, September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001, to authorize the U.S. State Department to issue such Letters. Private U.S. citizens would then be able to hunt down, attack and collect assets from terrorists who have or are planning to commit hostile acts against the U.S. and its citizens. (See Ron Paul’s Press Release.)

The Founders of the U.S. Constitution included Marque and Reprisal in addition to authorizing Congress to declare war, so that in some cases, the U.S. government would not have to engage the military and have a costly war. The risk would then be concentrated on those who chose to engage in the reprisal. This empowers private citizens to protect themselves and other Americans.

[B]Like Ron Paul said in one debate/lecture (i forgot which)… something like " look at the companies that deliver/take deposits from banking institutions… you don’t see them getting robbed"

Well they have safety zones around LPG, ammonia ships, cruise ships, or hazardous cargo… so why cant the pirates be informed that entering some radius of the vessel, constitutes consent to fired upon and/or defended by the crew? And weather it’s US crew, ship owned or not, A company’s duties to permit the crew, or private company, to defend themselves is the cost of doing business along with their precious cargo.[/B]

38

Statements like that invalidate YOUR argument. When did I ever say their problems mattered? All I was saying was that one cannot assume, as you have, that killing some pirates will deter others without knowing why they do it. You spend half your posts insulting me, and those personal attacks make your argument look less strong.

I have stated before that I agree, ship security should have the authority to fire on any vessel approaching with intent to board and kill any they can. How does that lead you to think that I am some liberal hippy? Pay more attention to what people say and not what you think they say…

39

[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;57452]When did I ever say their problems mattered? [/QUOTE]

Yesterday at 5:23

[I]“We don’t know what dives them to piracy. If they are executed for returning empty handed and are executed if they refuse to go out, then killing them well not deter their buddies. Without knowing their motivations (poverty or terrorism or fear of a terrorist with a gun) …”

[/I]Maybe you had something else in mind but that sure reads like it is looking beyond what they are doing (boarding ships to kidnap and murder) in order to somehow excuse their actions or to provide a reason we should just accept acts of nautical terrorism. Like someone else pointed out, we have “security zones” around certain ships, we have “use of deadly force authorized” signs on the fences around military and nuclear establishments. We don’t provide exemptions for those who might not be volunteers or totally committed to the cause.

If the text above is insulting to you then perhaps you should stop reading my posts and dig a bit deeper into your own reasons for feeling insulted. So far you are the only person who has labeled you as anything. But, I think you are being a bit hard on yourself, I would never have chosen “liberal hippy” to describe your approach.

40

Again, you are drawing illogical conclusions from my statement. I never said that their reasons for piracy should excuse them, the reason for the statement you quoted was to enforce my statement that your assertion that killing some will deter others is not necessarily true.

You continue to pick and choose what you want out of what I say to draw incorrect conclusions about my sentiments and intent. Try reading my whole posts and dont draw conclusions from a small part.