U.S.C.G. El Faro Hearings in Jacksonville

[QUOTE=damagedgoods;179525]“The Coast Guard’s Marine Board of Investigation is looking for evidence of misconduct, inattention to duty, negligence or willful violation of the law by licensed or certified individuals.”

This is exactly why issues like this never get solved. They should not be looking who they should hang, but rather the root-cause so that it will not happen again. Since the CG (or ex-CG’ers rather) run the NTSB, that is the same thing. The big search for a scapegoat.

Marine Investigations in England and other civilized countries are done by experts in the field, not the military, and those who testify are exculpated from guilt (bar a clear and intentional breaking of the law) and the purpose is not to hang someone at fault for a mistake, because those people would never do it again and have learned a lesson the hard way, but rather to find out why and make recommendations that would preclude that from happening again.

Which leads me to the last item at question. Why is the USCG in “charge” of the Merchant Marine? Because they have ships, because they used to run the lighthouses for us? If it is because they have ships, then they should run the airline industry instead of the FAA because they have more planes than ships. Putting them in charge of maritime safety was a big mistake that should finally be rectified.[/QUOTE]

Are there any other countries with a similar system of maritime regulatory administration as that of the US?

[QUOTE=catherder;179564]I understand that- I work for the government. You aren’t telling me anything I don’t already know. But here’s the real question- does anyone here really think that a top of the line computer system would have saved this ship from the mistakes that sent her to the bottom? Data is only as useful as the end user deems.[/QUOTE]

With regards to the email received to update the weather software; if the captain wants the bridge watch officers fully engaged in monitoring the weather then likely the ship will be set up so that the weather is recieved on the bridge. If the weather is recived in captain’s office then possibly weather informataion is dealt with on more of a hierarchical basis.

On the Anthem of the Seas video the captain said the weather was fine before he went to sleep and the next morning when he got up it had gone to shit. Evidently no one called him. If your going to play around in areas of heavy weather the bridge watch officer need to be involved.

There was some intresting tweets in that feed Fraq posted the link to.

  • The door between the E/R and #3 hatch was often left open.

  • The ship sailed with a relatively low GM, that would rasie questions about damage stablity.

  • Stabilty was computed after leaving the berth?

-El Faro was loaded heavy enough they were using their load line fresh water allowance

  • Some discussion about the last few boxes loaded and hull stress.

  • The El Faro had three Chief Mates in a single month.

When that ship was used on the Alaska run the top deck had trailers on it, not stacks of containers. The captain started working for TOTE in 2013, high turnover with C/M. Fast tempo cargo ops, maybe pushing limits on stabilty and hull stress?

If using fresh water allowance who is checking salinity at the dock?

What about accounting for fresh water run off dilution during periods of heavy rain?

Who is keeping the log? Is it sent in with voyage plan?

I’m hoping we get to the port engineers and fleet maintenance people soon. I’ve been wondering wether TOTE uses NS5 or some other PM program. Of course the million dollar question is exactly what type of propulsion casualty did they inform the company’s emergency hotline they were having.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;179584] Of course the million dollar question is exactly what type of propulsion casualty did they inform the company’s emergency hotline they were having.[/QUOTE]

I’m more interested in how they’ll lie about it and say they have no idea what the problem was.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;179583]There was some intresting tweets in that feed Fraq posted the link to.

  • The door between the E/R and #3 hatch was often left open.

  • The ship sailed with a relatively low GM, that would rasie questions about damage stablity.

  • Stabilty was computed after leaving the berth?

-El Faro was loaded heavy enough they were using their load line fresh water allowance

  • Some discussion about the last few boxes loaded and hull stress.

  • The El Faro had three Chief Mates in a single month.

When that ship was used on the Alaska run the top deck had trailers on it, not stacks of containers. The captain started working for TOTE in 2013, high turnover with C/M. Fast tempo cargo ops, maybe pushing limits on stabilty and hull stress?[/QUOTE]

The door between 3 hold and the engine room on the 3rd deck was at times open when someone was at work in the hold. There are no hatches.

Those ships sail loaded close to the marks. They are sailing with a GM that over the required GM even with fuel burn off.

In the commercial world of container/ro-ro ships on this run. Cargo usually isn’t completed until 30 minutes prior to leaving the dock. The stability is calculated by shoreside personnel before the ship sails. They give the chief mate a copy of the Cargomax file with the cargo papers. The chief mate checks the stability on the way out.

Yes they use FWA. They usually load close to but not at the marks. Still, they are legal.

They had discussions about the last few boxes and list.

Three chief mates in a month isn’t good. But the regular guy could have been due to get off, they had a fill in for a short time and then a new guy. It has happened before. Could be yes could be no.

The are no indications that the ship had problems with hull stress. It is still in one piece. Stability yes, any time you are taking on water and develop a 15 degree list, there is a problem. Free surface is not your friend when you are on a rolling dead ship in a hurricane.

The two questions of this sinking are: 1. Why did they sail into the hurricane? 2. What caused them to lose propulsion?

To me they will not get conclusive answers to these questions and the results will just be a theory unless they get the VDR. Even then there may not be answers.

An explanation just now on why the number of email was different from Joaquin and the other storms, the other storms were forecast to impact the ports of SJU and JAX, Joaquin was not forecast to impact the ports, only the route which was the captain’s responsibility.

“The two questions of this sinking are: 1. Why did they sail into the hurricane? 2. What caused them to lose propulsion?”

I would like to add to the questions you posted. I assume the Capt thought he could get under the hurricane and the engines failed. The ship took a 15 degree list. Did this list come before the engines failed? This is important because I am trying to decide if the failure of the engines is the start of the disaster or did the cargo shift cause the engines to fail. I assume the list came after the engine failure. And the Capt was diverting from the sail plan to change his route away from the hurricane.

So why are they not looking into the engine issue? They only have the C/E scheduled for one morning. Why not get the 1st and other licenced engineers in there and ask about the engine department. Did the chief and 1st get along with crew? What issues where in the engine room that where not being dealt with? I notice the port engineer was not much help, what was he hiding. I know these steam plants had a lot of issues and where breaking down frequently.

The issue is if the engines did not fail would the crew be alive today?

[QUOTE=RespectMyAuthority;179590]The door between 3 hold and the engine room on the 3rd deck was at times open when someone was at work in the hold. There are no hatches.

Those ships sail loaded close to the marks. They are sailing with a GM that over the required GM even with fuel burn off.

In the commercial world of container/ro-ro ships on this run. Cargo usually isn’t completed until 30 minutes prior to leaving the dock. The stability is calculated by shoreside personnel before the ship sails. They give the chief mate a copy of the Cargomax file with the cargo papers. The chief mate checks the stability on the way out.

Yes they use FWA. They usually load close to but not at the marks. Still, they are legal.

They had discussions about the last few boxes and list.

Three chief mates in a month isn’t good. But the regular guy could have been due to get off, they had a fill in for a short time and then a new guy. It has happened before. Could be yes could be no.

The are no indications that the ship had problems with hull stress. It is still in one piece. Stability yes, any time you are taking on water and develop a 15 degree list, there is a problem. Free surface is not your friend when you are on a rolling dead ship in a hurricane.

The two questions of this sinking are: 1. Why did they sail into the hurricane? 2. What caused them to lose propulsion?

To me they will not get conclusive answers to these questions and the results will just be a theory unless they get the VDR. Even then there may not be answers.[/QUOTE]

The important factors for a ship in trouble in heavy seas are watertight integrity, freeboard and stability.

With regards to watertight integrity, the fact the WT door between #3 hold and the E/R was in some circumstances left open, (I believe the 2/M prevaricated a bit but said something along the lines of otherwise it was “supposed” to be closed) along with the fact that it was reported that water entered a scuttle increases the odds of problems with watertight integrity or at least raises questions.

Loading the ship close to her marks means less freeboard. The issue there is deck edge immersion at a lower angle of roll and more water on deck in heavy seas.

The minimum or relativity low GM would mean less damage stability, the ship would be more vulnerable to flooding or shifting cargo. Also a ship with low GM is more likely to ship seas on deck.

I agree that being at the stress limits by itself is not an issue and certainly is no smoking gun, the problem is that taking into account stress limits options with regards to ballast and loading.

All together it adds up to a vessel with not a lot of margin for error.

I am sick of all these red herrings being presented here. Let’s all wrap our heads around this simple reality of what caused EL FARO’s horrible loss…

No ship is designed with enough righting arm margin to withstand a catastrophic cascading of cargo (which I believe occurred aboard the EL FARO), especially if there is concurrent flooding also resulting

Reserve buoyancy (load line), righting arm in the damaged condition (initial GM) and floodable length (standard of compartmentation) all have to do with a damaged ship where the cargo has not all fallen to one side of the vessel (and potentially punctured shell plating in the process). Move the TCG far to one side of the ship and the hydrodynamic margins built into the vessel do not apply anymore. List a ship’s hull to the point where the deck edge is immersed and the righting arm rapidly vanishes even without downflooding occurring however we know that there was flooding in EL FARO before she was lost.

Lay any ship beam to in 60’ seas and 130+kt winds and tell me what cargo wouldn’t break loose and all fall to one side? Ro/Ro vessels have more danger of this occurring than any other class of cargo vessel. It is only the chains holding those loaded trailers and huge pieces of heavy equipment from all tumbling into one massive pile down in the holds and quite possibly right through the side of the hull! Add to that all the open space between the trailers that allows them to strain their lashings…cargo in one huge block like containers only test the lashings on the perimeter but every piece of Ro/Ro cargo is free to start moving and once one piece breaks free in such conditions, all other pieces will eventually go adrift with catastrophic effect. You can’t prevent the potential of this fatal situation from happening other than to avoid severe weather.

THAT IS WHAT IN REALITY IS DOOMED THE EL FARO AND KILLED HER PEOPLE! It was not FWA, not hull stress, not one watertight door being left open by mistake, not 3 chief mate’s in so many months. It was the fact she belonged to a class of ship with real potential danger of being lost if she encountered severe weather when non under command and thus the ship should never have ever ventured so near the center of a strong tropical cyclone! PERIOD, FULL STOP, END OF STORY, MOVE ALONG…THERE’S NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS!

Now why did the ship lose propulsion when it did and why was it not able to be restored before the EL FARO was knocked down? If there was still steam how in the HELL was it they could not get it going back into the turbines again in short order.

WE ALSO MUST CONTINUE TO ASK WHY IN THE FUCK DID DAVIDSON CHOOSE HIS COURSE AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, WHY DID HE NOT HEAVE TO BEFORE 2200LT THE NIGHT OF THE 30TH WHEN HE STILL HAD TIME AND ROOM TO DO SO BEFORE PASSING SAN SALVADORE? PRESSURE FROM TOTE TO NOT MAKE THE TRIP LONGER THAN PLANNED? A FALSE SECURITY HE FELT IN HIS SHIP? A MISTAKEN SENSE THAT THE WIND AND SEA CONDITIONS MIGHT NOT BE SO BAD AND THAT HE COULD ALWAYS GO DOWN THE CROOKED ISLAND PASSAGE IF NECESSARY? HOWEVER, THERE WAS NO MARGIN FOR THINGS TO GO SOUTH WHEN AND WHERE THEY DID SO TAKING THAT TRACK WITH JOACHIM RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM WAS CRIMINAL IN ITS RECKLESSNESS AND DISREGARD FOR A MASTER’S SACRED DUTY TO FIRST AND FOREMOST NOT TO TAKE RISKS WHICH MIGHT JEOPARDIZE THE SAFETY OF THE CREW, THE SHIP AND IT’S CARGO!

.

[QUOTE=c.captain;179622]I am sick of all these red herrings being presented here. Let’s all wrap our heads around this simple reality of what caused EL FARO’s horrible loss…

No ship is designed with enough righting arm margin to withstand a catastrophic cascading of cargo (which I believe occurred aboard the EL FARO), especially if there is concurrent flooding also resulting

Reserve buoyancy (load line), righting arm in the damaged condition (initial GM) and floodable length (standard of compartmentation) all have to do with a damaged ship where the cargo has not all fallen to one side of the vessel (and potentially punctured shell plating in the process). Move the TCG far to one side of the ship and the hydrodynamic margins built into the vessel do not apply anymore. List a ship’s hull to the point where the deck edge is immersed and the righting arm rapidly vanishes even without downflooding occurring however we know that there was flooding in EL FARO before she was lost.

Lay any ship beam to in 60’ seas and 130+kt winds and tell me what cargo wouldn’t break loose and all fall to one side? Ro/Ro vessels have more danger of this occurring than any other class of cargo vessel. It is only the chains holding those loaded trailers and huge pieces of heavy equipment from all tumbling into one massive pile down in the holds and quite possibly right through the side of the hull! Add to that all the open space between the trailers that allows them to strain their lashings…cargo in one huge block like containers only test the lashings on the perimeter but every piece of Ro/Ro cargo is free to start moving and once one piece breaks free in such conditions, all other pieces will eventually go adrift with catastrophic effect. You can’t prevent the potential of this fatal situation from happening other than to avoid severe weather.

THAT IS WHAT IN REALITY IS DOOMED THE EL FARO AND KILLED HER PEOPLE! It was not FWA, not hull stress, not one watertight door being left open by mistake, not 3 chief mate’s in so many months. It was the fact she belonged to a class of ship with real potential danger of being lost if she encountered severe weather when non under command and thus the ship should never have ever ventured so near the center of a strong tropical cyclone! PERIOD, FULL STOP, END OF STORY, MOVE ALONG…THERE’S NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS!

Now why did the ship lose propulsion when it did and why was it not able to be restored before the EL FARO was knocked down? If there was still steam how in the HELL was it they could not get it going back into the turbines again in short order?

.[/QUOTE]

This thread is about the hearing, I was just making a list of some items from the twitter feed that I thought were interesting. I’m not claiming that using FWA was the cause of the incident, it does mean that the TOTE ship on this run were leaving fully loaded.

I was not aware that those ships were leaving JAX so heavily loaded. The explanation is that loads increased after TOTE’s competition left the US-SJU trade.

Are you saying that in the event of a cargo shift GM and freeboard could not possibly be issues?

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;179627]This thread is about the hearing, I was just making a list of some items from the twitter feed that I thought were interesting. I’m not claiming that using FWA was the cause of the incident, it does mean that the TOTE ship on this run were leaving fully loaded.

I was not aware that those ships were leaving JAX so heavily loaded. The explanation is that loads increased after TOTE’s competition left the US-SJU trade.

Are you saying that in the event of a cargo shift GM and freeboard could not possibly be issues?[/QUOTE]

I think what he is suggesting is that there is no possible survivability, so no need to ruminate on these characteristics any more than whether or not the ship should survive a direct meteor strike and how that would inevitably lead to sinking. One could also say the same about the investigation into corporate organization and control structure… Boat sank in heavy weather, no point in looking for anything save a person to blame.

I disagree, the stability (intact and damage), loading, lashing and other items are important to look into. The Board by necessity has to examine many issues, including items not immediately, apparently relevant (for example, hull stress absent any physical evidence noted in the examination of the wreck), just so that box can be checked.

The stability, load condition, cargo shifting, and therefore lashing and so on are critical points of investigation. While there seems an inevitability once the vessel was without power to suffer cargo shifting and ultimately loss, these all have to be examined. It’s about timing. Did the loss or shifting cargo or flooding enable/cause the propulsion casualty or inhibit/prohibit the necessary steps to regain propulsion? In theory, the loss of prop condemned the vessel one way or another (or maybe I should the loss of ability to restart under the conditions did) but the stability, loading, shifting (whether before or after the loss of prop), all of these play into the considerations of what may have decreased the time between point of inevitability and sinking thus impacting crew evacuation or emergency comms–a critical consideration.

This is actually, technically, multiple casualties, loss of prop, loss of stability, loss of vessel, loss of lives. Each of these has their own point of inevitability and has to be examined. The vessel’s fate may have been sealed at loss of prop in a severe weather event, but that doesn’t mean the crew’s fate was. If there was more GM, better survivability, even in the failure of cargo shifting, anything that increased survivability of the vessel in extremis is more escape time potentially.

The Board’s job is the breakdown these moments to a fine detail pre- and post-casualty. It also has to see what can be done to improve and stretch out those moments to see if any controls could be added, or should have been employed (if present). It all has to be examined, considered and questioned.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;179583]There was some intresting tweets in that feed Fraq posted the link to.

  • The door between the E/R and #3 hatch was often left open.

  • The ship sailed with a relatively low GM, that would rasie questions about damage stablity.

  • Stabilty was computed after leaving the berth?

-El Faro was loaded heavy enough they were using their load line fresh water allowance

  • Some discussion about the last few boxes loaded and hull stress.

  • The El Faro had three Chief Mates in a single month.

When that ship was used on the Alaska run the top deck had trailers on it, not stacks of containers. The captain started working for TOTE in 2013, high turnover with C/M. Fast tempo cargo ops, maybe pushing limits on stabilty and hull stress?[/QUOTE]

Check these tweets also - https://twitter.com/writeonsk?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;179627]Are you saying that in the event of a cargo shift GM and freeboard could not possibly be issues?[/QUOTE]

in the wind/sea conditions and not under command as the EL FARO was there was nothing to save the ship once the cargo all started to move. Even if the highest deck was the one watertight she still would have been lost and no amount of intact righting arm will allow a ship to return to the point of stability once the TCG shifts far enough to one side. When there is a massive shifting of the cargo in those conditions, the ship cannot recover.

[QUOTE=Jamesbrown;179631]Did the loss or shifting cargo or flooding enable/cause the propulsion casualty or inhibit/prohibit the necessary steps to regain propulsion? [/QUOTE]

it was the being not under command that led to the catastrophic shifting of the cargo because with propulsion you can control your heading and degree of rolling but once propulsion is lost, you laying ahull with the seas causing immense angles of heel. It was during this period that having a low GM would have played a part because it allowed the vessel to roll to dangerous angles where the lashings could not hold the cargo but I believe the cargo was doomed to move. Certainly too, a low freeboard did allow the ship to take water on the watertight deck and we know it did start to make its way into the holds. HOWEVER, I believe that if the EL FARO had 1’ more freeboard and a 20% greater intact righting arm at the point of departure, with the ship as designed she still would have foundered because I do NOT believe the cargo would not have still come adrift. That particular design of Ro/Ro was not a safe one for encountering such severe weather. A differently designed Ro/Ro might have survived with cargo shifting but not EL FARO. I suspect that at some horrible moment, there was a piece of cargo that moved and then started a hideous cascading of more and more cargo all starting to move down to the lowside. The people on the ship likely heard and felt this happening over what could have been a number of minutes with the ship going over steadily and not coming back, but I believe it was more like seconds hence no distress being transmitted. With only one body being found in a survival suit means the master did not have the personnel standing by on deck prepared to abandon the vessel.

And we all know in the wind/sea conditions and with such antiquated LSA, there was no survival for her people.

I AM SORRY BUT THIS IS REOPENING PAINFUL WOUNDS I SUFFERED BACK IN OCTOBER…THIS IS TRULY HORRIBLE TO HAVE OCCURRED BUT EVEN WORSE BECAUSE IT WAS ALL SO AVOIDABLE!

.

[QUOTE=c.captain;179622]I am sick of all these red herrings being presented here. Let’s all wrap our heads around this simple reality of what caused EL FARO’s horrible loss…

You can’t prevent the potential of this fatal situation from happening other than to avoid severe weather.

THAT IS WHAT IN REALITY IS DOOMED THE EL FARO AND KILLED HER PEOPLE! It was not FWA, not hull stress, not one watertight door being left open by mistake, not 3 chief mate’s in so many months. It was the fact she belonged to a class of ship with real potential danger of being lost if she encountered severe weather when non under command and thus the ship should never have ever ventured so near the center of a strong tropical cyclone! PERIOD, FULL STOP, END OF STORY, MOVE ALONG…THERE’S NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS!

Now why did the ship lose propulsion when it did and why was it not able to be restored before the EL FARO was knocked down? If there was still steam how in the HELL was it they could not get it going back into the turbines again in short order?

.[/QUOTE]

Agreed it all comes down to why she was in the path of the hurricane and why did they lose propulsion. Everything else is not of any major consequence.

About 45 mins ago they played the phone call Captain Davidson made to the TOTE call center and the phone call from Company DPA to the CG.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;179651]About 45 mins ago they played the phone call Captain Davidson made to the TOTE call center and the phone call from Company DPA to the CG.[/QUOTE]

And what did they?

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;179651]About 45 mins ago they played the phone call Captain Davidson made to the TOTE call center and the phone call from Company DPA to the CG.[/QUOTE]

For those of us not watching, was there anything interesting or enlightening in either of those calls?

Voice mail to DPA

Call from El Faro to call center

Call between DPA and CG