I’m sorry this is another “Jones Act madness” thread but this is an issue that is ever-present in our lives and careers and the fun never seems to stop. I was just browsing through some articles on the news side of gCaptain and saw another article about the many ways in which the Jones Act is ruining everyone’s day. Don’t get me wrong, I support the Jones Act, I wouldn’t have a job without it, but I’m also a firm believer that it needs some serious help.
Here’s the crux of the issue as I see it: there’s no really well-founded problems with the parts of the act concerning U.S. registration, ownership, or crewing, the real problems start with the U.S. construction provision in the act. It pains me deeply to say this but: American ships just cost too damn much! I know I’m not saying anything that hasn’t already been said, and I know not all of you will agree with me, so I apologize, but this debate is definitely an ongoing one.
We cannot repeal the Jones Act as Senator McCain has suggested, but neither can we simply remove the provision that requires ships to be built in the United States. At the same time we have one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington, the trucking or “teamster” lobby, working very hard to keep the Jones Act just the way it is because the more confounded we are the more work they have. For me there is only one answer, and although it would not be an easy fix but rather because it is so singular, the answer is a simple one: shipyard reform.
Shipyard reform is a massive and vastly complex topic. It is also a goal that could not be accomplished in less than a matter of years, never mind over night. To fix shipbuilding in this country and to make it as affordable as it is in other countries would be to put the Jones Act turmoil to rest. We’ll never compete with Asia because we thus far refuse to be a third world country, but if we can compete with Europe, that might just be a goal worth trying to achieve. The way things are now we might as well be riveting cast iron plates together and installing triple-expansion steam engines. Sure, we’re in possession of every modern technology that every other country has, but the organization of the shipbuilding industry in this nation is dangerously archaic. Where else does the elevated cost come from? Shipyards in Europe pay comparable wages and have comparable costs of materials. Surely then the dichotomy originates deep within the heart of bureaucracy and red tape.
If this country is looking to get back on its feet after such a deep recession, and to be competitive again, then let it look no further than shipbuilding as a project of real long-term value. Our Merchant Marine can stand on its own two feet, but not without the decks of ships to stand on. What I would like to hear from my fellow gCaptain-ers is how all of you think shipbuilding in this country could be reformed. How do we make that an internationally competitive industry once again?
Funny the GOM companies seem to do just fine building their boats in the US.
You modify one part of the Jones Act and it becomes easier to modify another and before you know it a Filipino has taken your job working for $100 a day and 9 months at a time.
Just look at Gun Control for an example of thinking that giving a little will shut up the opposition and they will go away. It doesn’t work that way, they get a taste and they keep coming back for more.
Of course the gulf is the one shining example we have that we can be proud of, but it’s the unlimited, transoceanic, deep water, blue water fleet that is shriveling up and dying a painful death.
For what it’s worth, just my two cents, I have to agree that going along with one change to the Jones Act just invites more changes. Human nature? Whatever you want to call it, it’s a fact of life.
However, the need for modernized shipyards in the U.S. is apparent. Many of them seem third-worldish already. I mean $12 per hour in a repair yard in NY Harbor, that isn’t even a living wage in this region. Sounds more like owner greed is the problem. If they won’t pay their employee’s anymore than a sub-standard wage, it’s hard to believe the owner has any interest in capital investment to modernize his repair yard. As far as I can see, they are working with the same tools & equipment they were using 40 years ago. Typical business model, take dollars from the business and re-invest nickels. It’s no wonder that European tugs and ships are years ahead of U.S. equipment. If you want state-of-the-art today, you have to buy overseas.
U.S yards can’t build it here because they did not invest in new technology that reduce overall production cost. It has nothing to do with the JONES ACT! It’s about GREED and how short-sighted greed has created the decline in overall U.S. Industrial strength and ship building in particular.
[QUOTE=Lookout;103651]For what it’s worth, just my two cents, I have to agree that going along with one change to the Jones Act just invites more changes. Human nature? Whatever you want to call it, it’s a fact of life.
However, the need for modernized shipyards in the U.S. is apparent. Many of them seem third-worldish already. I mean $12 per hour in a repair yard in NY Harbor, that isn’t even a living wage in this region. Sounds more like owner greed is the problem. If they won’t pay their employee’s anymore than a sub-standard wage, it’s hard to believe the owner has any interest in capital investment to modernize his repair yard. As far as I can see, they are working with the same tools & equipment they were using 40 years ago. Typical business model, take dollars from the business and re-invest nickels. It’s no wonder that European tugs and ships are years ahead of U.S. equipment. If you want state-of-the-art today, you have to buy overseas.
U.S yards can’t build it here because they did not invest in new technology that reduce overall production cost. It has nothing to do with the JONES ACT! It’s about GREED and how short-sighted greed has created the decline in overall U.S. Industrial strength and ship building in particular.[/QUOTE]
You make good points and I’m glad that you capitalized on the problems with shipyards. In the OP I tried to make it clear that I was not in favor of either repealing or amending the Jones Act itself, but rather to change the shipyards and make the Jones Act work for us. I get the feeling that maybe some sea stories would be of good use here. I think sharing some examples of waste and corruption in modern American shipyards would help to flesh out some ideas about what might be done to fix the problems at hand.
I advocate allowing the foreign built vessels in but ONLY temporarily and with the provision that an equivalent US built vessel will be constructed within 5 years using the net profits. Plus an importation duty of 25% up front for allowing the foreign hull in. No waivers to allow foreign built and flagged vessels ever be granted again for coastwise trade either!
Also, a US vessel gets to be depreciated over only 10 years whereas a foreign built vessel is on the standard 25 year schedule. That would be a huge incentive to not use a foreign hull. Begin funding Title IX again but not for start up or passenger operations anymore. It should be for established US corporations with long track records of successful operations. Make it so that financially, there is much more reason to like a US built ship.
Saving money for Hawaiian or Alaskan residents should not be a driving factor here. US jobs should be.
I cannot agree more than to start whittling the mandates of the Act down to a toothpick will do nothing in the end but destroy us American workers but at the same time the build US requirement kills development of a revitalized new merchant marine. As a someday maritime entrepreneur, I would love to be able to go out and find a foreign constructed vessel to start my business since I can then go to the world secondhand tonnage market to find a perfect ship for my needs which obviously don’t exist in the US built category. As long as adequate protections were put into place to still bring the work to the US yards in the end then this could be win/win yet unscrupulous operators will find ways to get around the law and run their foreign built ships forever without ever building a ship in the US. And you’re right that given time, they’ll find a way to stick the shiv into the mariners as well as the shipyards. Business is business and maximizing profits is paramount no matter who you have to fuck in the end! Behold American capitalism at its finest!
US vessels and mariners will always cost more but it is pretty clear that we aren’t so expensive to make a US flagged business non profitable. I takes good management which Saltchuk has proven to have. Horizon on the other hand, sucks eggs and needs to just die already and then be reborn under Saltchuk’s parentage. But what to do with all of those ancient old steamships?
I was on an MSC chartered ro-ro in 2011 in drydock in Bayonne. The yard electrician asked me where shaft alley was. No wonder they don’t build ships (large oceangoing vessels) in the US. Bath Iron Works has tunnel vision of only wanting to build Navy ships. There is one of the largest offshore sources of wind right off Maine. Why don’t they venture into the wind turbine platform or turbine construction itself. It is the old who’s going to be the first one in the pool, thing. Just the support crews for large offshore business’ is good for the economy.
[QUOTE=c.captain;103657] I takes good management which Saltchuk has proven to have.[/QUOTE]
Rumor is they are throwing in the towel in San Diego, Boston (entire east coast) and another shipdocking segment in the NW. Small peanuts, VERY small, but they’re not perfect. Rumor is used loosely, more or less confirmed through those who know, at least the East coast side of it. Guess you can only lose money for so long.
Good article today in the Gcapt digest about Norway’s issues as well.
[QUOTE=z-drive;103668]Rumor is they are throwing in the towel in San Diego, Boston (entire east coast) and another shipdocking segment in the NW. Small peanuts, VERY small, but they’re not perfect. Rumor is used loosely, more or less confirmed through those who know, at least the East coast side of it. Guess you can only lose money for so long.
Good article today in the Gcapt digest about Norway’s issues as well.[/QUOTE]
You’re talking about ship assist operations correct? What I’m discussing is TOTE and Sea Star Line. The latter must be making money if they are investing in the new ships to be built at NASSCO? The only major coastwise markets that Saltchuk is not in is Hawaii but they are big interisland so I wonder why they don’t go that direction as well? Of course, they might just be waiting for Horizon to be flushed and then get the docks and containers but the biggest capital need to revive that failed operation are the ships! Maybe Saltchuck will take over the old steamers if Horizon sinks and then rapidly get them replaced with newbuilds also from NASSCO.
Does anyone know why Saltchuk never went into coastwise petroleum like their biggest competitor, Crowley?
Of course they have their act together in Jones act shipping, way more so than anyone else. But to answer your question, ship docking, contract towing out east. Just was saying that their operations and business models aren’t flawless in ALL sectors; something you clearly understand but not everyone would consider. I know they are involved to some degree with Kirby, officially, unofficially, no idea what its all about but i’d love to hear from someone who does know.
How the hell is Horizon still afloat with their old crap to begin with? I always remember there being a few laid up/broke down in NY at any given point.
I worked on the Fairbanks/ old Expedition in 2007 and the corrosion was scary bad. Outside my room the deck looked like Swiss cheese with sheets of rust and holes of various sizes. Horizon must have paid someone off to run that rust bucket. The engine room ran great but who knows what the keel looked like. We made a run to China to pick up containers with the paint still wet on them as we loaded them. Maybe they invested heavily in new Containers and such and the bottom fell out from under them during this depression. The old US ships were built to well and the yards helped put themselves out of business. I doubt any ship built today will last 50 years.
Maybe US will get a breath of work from windpower. Here in Germany there are 2 construction ships based within a mile of home, two survey boats in & out, over in Bremerhaven several yards building windmill foundations and xfmr platforms, a lift barge (to mount the turbines & blades), a new yard opening here to make fdns & platforms and some of the nicest mid sized deck barges i have ever seen.
[QUOTE=c.captain;103672]You’re talking about ship assist operations correct? What I’m discussing is TOTE and Sea Star Line. The latter must be making money if they are investing in the new ships to be built at NASSCO? The only major coastwise markets that Saltchuk is not in is Hawaii but they are big interisland so I wonder why they don’t go that direction as well? Of course, they might just be waiting for Horizon to be flushed and then get the docks and containers but the biggest capital need to revive that failed operation are the ships! Maybe Saltchuck will take over the old steamers if Horizon sinks and then rapidly get them replaced with newbuilds also from NASSCO.
Does anyone know why Saltchuk never went into coastwise petroleum like their biggest competitor, Crowley?[/QUOTE]
I thought Sea Star got into deep shit with their price fixing deal? I saw one of their steamers parked in Baltimore a month ago.
[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;103664]I was on an MSC chartered ro-ro in 2011 in drydock in Bayonne. The yard electrician asked me where shaft alley was. No wonder they don’t build ships (large oceangoing vessels) in the US. Bath Iron Works has tunnel vision of only wanting to build Navy ships. There is one of the largest offshore sources of wind right off Maine. Why don’t they venture into the wind turbine platform or turbine construction itself. It is the old who’s going to be the first one in the pool, thing. Just the support crews for large offshore business’ is good for the economy.[/QUOTE]
I think NASSCO just delivered the last T-AKE, amirite? But the replacement for the T-AO oilers has been shelved for now…
But you have a point- one reason I got out of shipyard work was the shitty pay, what made things worse was having to work around slackers and knuckleheads who would find a bucket and sit on it all day, and get paid the same as me…with no consequences. I’m hooking up an alarm panel and some Joe Blow wants to park his azz in a corner and hold court with his buddies, and watch.
It really sucked for morale and the better workers just left as soon as something opens up. I know I did.
Heck, Newport News tried to build double hull tankers and f’ed that up royally. Anyone remember the whole Double Eagle debacle? I was working on a carrier at the time.
[QUOTE=catherder;103680]I think NASSCO just delivered the last T-AKE, amirite? But the replacement for the T-AO oilers has been shelved for now…
But you have a point- one reason I got out of shipyard work was the shitty pay, what made things worse was having to work around slackers and knuckleheads who would find a bucket and sit on it all day, and get paid the same as me…with no consequences. I’m hooking up an alarm panel and some Joe Blow wants to park his azz in a corner and hold court with his buddies, and watch.
It really sucked for morale and the better workers just left as soon as something opens up. I know I did.
Heck, Newport News tried to build double hull tankers and f’ed that up royally. Anyone remember the whole Double Eagle debacle? I was working on a carrier at the time.[/QUOTE]
Well there you go. That is the kind of information I was looking for. Ok so the pay was crap but I get the feeling that if we paid fewer more qualified workers (no bucket-sitting) better wages there would be a massive savings and a massive increase in productivity. I hate to start throwing blame around but do you know what I think as soon as I hear about crap wages, unqualified laborers, low productivity, and a collapsing industry slowly but surely moving over-seas? Unions. Please steer me in another direction if I’m wrong, but I have a strong suspicion that much of the issues at hand, which as we well know propagate much further than a single industry, can be attributed to the free reign of unions.
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;103682]Well there you go. That is the kind of information I was looking for. Ok so the pay was crap but I get the feeling that if we paid fewer more qualified workers (no bucket-sitting) better wages there would be a massive savings and a massive increase in productivity. I hate to start throwing blame around but do you know what I think as soon as I hear about crap wages, unqualified laborers, low productivity, and a collapsing industry slowly but surely moving over-seas? Unions. Please steer me in another direction if I’m wrong, but I have a strong suspicion that much of the issues at hand, which as we well know propagate much further than a single industry, can be attributed to the free reign of unions.[/QUOTE]
We were unionized at NN but I was hoping this would not turn into an indictment of unions. I have seen lackadaisical workers at non-union shipyards and just as importantly, non-American workers as well, who needed an interpreter to understand what the Foreman wanted them to do. So it’s a little more complex than what the unions are/are not doing.
Shipyard productivity issues are not unique to the USA, union yard or not.
In any complex business, first comes intelligent management and planning at high, mid and low levels, directing a trained, informed and skilled labor force that is well motivated.
But more often than not, chances of encountering all that is like finding a needle in a haystack.
In the dark.
While it is snowing.
When you do find it, there will still be bumps along the way, and the work expensive.
[QUOTE=catherder;103684]We were unionized at NN but I was hoping this would not turn into an indictment of unions. I have seen lackadaisical workers at non-union shipyards and just as importantly, non-American workers as well, who needed an interpreter to understand what the Foreman wanted them to do. So it’s a little more complex than what the unions are/are not doing.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I apologize if it seemed like I was trying to over-simplify the issue there, I just wanted to highlight what I see as not the only, but certainly one of the larger parts of the problem. Foreign workers, and lazy workers at non-union yards, are also an unnecessary expense that the industry can no longer afford. Shipyards across the country need to crack down, fire the unnecessary, and reduce their costs across the board. I know I’m making some pretty broad strokes there but that’s why I started this thread. I’m looking for much more intelligent individuals than myself to help me fill in the blanks about just how shipyards can “crack down” and stop destroying the merchant marine.
In the US, rather than contract with a Jones Act OSV for domestic subsea work (i am referring to stuff beyond the GOM) our businesses get waivers and hire foreign vessels. Thats it, thats all. I’ve personally seen things like the Normand Clipper come over to work a few miles offshore…Same exact thing will happen for any wind construction projects here.