And what exactly was that speech supposed to convey?
The point is that no matter how skilled or trained a brown water sailor is at operating a tugboat, if he or she has not spent time operating a deep sea ship that person is not qualified to operate or manage that ship without considerale on the job training and experience.
I don’t think qualifies as an argument yet but…
I’m having a hard time seeing how it helps US merchant seamen specifically. It would help corporate America for sure but I don’t see how a second register necessarily helps the working stiff or meets the SECDEF’s goals.
What are the details of such a register going to be?
Only US citizens for the top 4 officers?
Any restrictions on the nationality of others? Do they have to undergo background checks like US citizens?
Jones Act remains in force for domestic trade?
MSP extends to only US flag & US manned?
Since they would not be built to the USCG requirements in addition to the class requirements Would inspection for material condition and statutory compliance be delegated completely to class for this register?
But namely a significant question becomes where does one think these ships would come from that would appear and seek to register these ships in the second register.
The latest report I can download from MARAD provides the following data.
181 US flag ships (self propelled, > 1000 GT, oceangoing)
99 Jones Act Eligible
82 Non Jones Act Eligible
Of the 82 Non-JA ships 60 are in the MSP program which according to MARAD brochure is the amount “autorized by congress”. These 60 plus 18 more of the 82 are classified as “militarily useful”. SO It’s not MARAD that unilaterally determines the size of the MSP program, congress has to fund it. Putting aside the role of money and corruption (which most certainly cannot be put aside) one would like to think the program supports having access to “enough” ships based on an actual requirement from the war planners for example.
SIDE NOTE
(and perhaps disappointing to some observers) the fleet age breaks down like this:
For the whole 181
Average age 16.8
Median 14
Mode 11
For the JA ships only
Average 18.7
For the Non-JA
Average 14.5
Presumably any implementation of a second register would not undo the Jone Act requirements. That would be logical and can only be considered as bare bones ships, crew and shipbuilding protection as well as some measure of security reassurance.
Next what about the MSP? Do second register ships qualify for the MSP program? It would seem fairness would dictate NO. The idea of employing non-citizens would seem counter to the program since those ships do nothing to have US Flag AND US manned ships ready for the worst case scenario. For me it is not logical to include them in this program. If you do then US deep sea job would decrease not increase.
So what would the benefits to a shipowner be to register under this second register? Because any of the proposed top-4 jobs on these ships can materialize only after a shipowner decides to go this route.
Again what’s the motivation for the ship owner then? Prestige? Protection of the US Navy? Access to the US legal System?
I suppose the 18 ships that are militarily useful and non-JA and not in the MSP would be one source. A way of parking the ship somewhere with lower operating expenses until such time congress authorizes expansion of the MSP?
Last week was a story about Cargill announcing how they were going to reduce CO2 emissions for their ocean transportation business. Looks like a solid US company. Then we find out they don’t own any ships, they charter them. 650 dry bulk and tankers. Wow. That would be a lot of jobs for US citizens if they actually owned and operated these ships under a second US register. On the dry bulk side probably not very militarily useful but would be more job for US seamen. I would say don’t hold your breath since the history of the tension between capital and labor since the robber barons does not suggest a Cargill or anyone else in that position would act out of altruism or true patriotism to think they owe anything to the nation that set them up. I don’t see the motivation yet.
If the SECDEF is correct I don’t see how his goals are achieved by simply setting up a second register. What controls for militarily useful? Do you limit what type of ship will enter the register? I see the advantage of at least having a least some senior slots available to US seamen which meets one part of his goal. However, at least in the short term expanding the MSP both in terms of numbers of ships and level of financial support per ship would seem a more direct approach to the SECDEF’s goals.
this is exactly what I have been saying…a 2nd register does nothing to ensure adequate qualified US citizen manpower to man the ROS vessels should the need arise to break them out in a hurry and that alone is what this thread is supposed to be concerning
BINGO! give that man a cigar (and not one of them exploding ones either!)
Just making my point and that we are basically in agreement, no?
now I want to ask my fellow US mariners here how many agree with me that it really is not acceptable for Norwegian citizens (who have no standing) to render their opinions on this matter? It is not their defense department we are speaking of. Not their reserve fleet. Not their seamen. They pay no taxes to the US Treasury
I SAY THEY SHOULD LEAVE THIS DISCUSSION TO US CITIZENS ONLY!
I’m OK with it.
It’s a challenge to explain something to someone who has no knowledge of the subject, but it can be done.
The real challenge is to explain something to someone who, worse then knowing nothing, believe themselves to be experts on the subject.
It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.
I vote for US citizen not making any comments or voicing any opinion about anything other than US matters.
Pls see previous post for the rules of what you can vote for. Post your vote on norwayisawesome.com and check for updates regularly.
Go away. Please.
Yes I know it is difficult and sometime even annoying. I have been trying for almost three years with only limited success.
Compared to what we pay for the Cheeto’s golfing trips the USMM is a huge bargain!
It is obvious that the US would gain some benefit from operating a second register equivalent to the NIS or Brits. Same crew requirements. Same tax structure, etc.
Start the US second register.
Make it illegal for any American citizen or American company to own or operate flag of convenience ships. Make it illegal for any flag of convenience to do business in the US.
Make it much much easier cheaper and faster for second register ships to clear US customs, clear security screening, obtain crew shoreleave, etc., that it currently is for flag of convenience ships.
4, Set the regulations, inspections, and legal requirememts for ships in the second register at customary international standards.
Only require four American officers, the Master and any three other officers. This would have to be phased in over time.
Phase out recognition of all flags of convenience, including access to US ports.
Suddenly, 90 percent of the American owned flag of convenience ships would be in the second register. So would a significant percentage of non-American owned flag of convenience ships that regularly trade to the US. It would help the US gain scale in shipping.
As has been pointed out by several others, there is no downside to having a second US register. The only thing open to debate is how much upside? Something is better than nothing.
The US is a very large global trader. It can find a way to make a second register attractive and beneficial.
Of course it’s acceptable for non-US citizens to have an opinion on the US reserve fleet, which Americans are free to discount by their lack of investment in the topic.
OTOH, an “ignore user” feature would help separate some of the wheat from the chaff…
Different perspectives whether or not I agree with them are always welcome in my opinion.
We bicker like hens because at the core it’s what seamen do. You can tear that from my cold dead hands because without it this forum truly has gone marshmallow.
Good idea, but it has to be done on realistic term and within existing international rules and practices.
How do you propose to do this? Any US Citizen or Company can just establish a company in a tax heaven somewhere and register ships in any flag state they want, like today.
What do you mean? For any FOC registry to be based and operated from US, or for any country that have a register classified as FOC to be banned from doing business with USA?
The first is your prerogative. If the last you would have to define what you mean by “doing business”?
Again, you can of course make any exemption you want for US registered ships (First or second register) but you still have to uphold IMO and MLC requirements for shore leave, or at least SHOULD.
That is a given. All members of IMO (187 nations) are required to and the FOCs and all 2nd Registers that is on the MOU White lists should tell you that they are. (The “sinners” are on the Gray and Black lists and may be banned)
If you want to stop FOC ship from calling at a US port you would have to define what you classify as FOCs? Would the second registers of other countries be classified as FOCs? (NIS, DIS, GIS etc.) What about registers, like Singapore, Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Bermuda etc.?
BTW; you would probably find that US register ships would be banned from other countries, defeating the purpose of a 2nd register.
Besides, you would have to withdraw from all international organizations, treaties and the “rule based world order” that you have been the creators of.
Like I have said many times, the days when the US could get away with dictating to all other countries are long gone. The present administration may not know that, but they are about to find out that their foreign policy doctrine of “We are America, Bitch” is not working very well.
If it is un-American to point out the obvious, so be it.
A company replacing a Jones Act ship is faced with direct replacement costs.
That’s not the case for the Non-Jones Act ships, older ships can be flagged out and newer ones, already owned by that entity, can be flagged in with administrative cost only.
It was mentioned that the ODS was used to modernize the fleet but that’s not the case.
Since when is a "second register’ anything but another flavor of FoC? A second register does nothing to provide jobs for Americans who would sail unlicensed or entry level license holders. The only people to benefit from that scam are the tax collectors.
I’ve always been in favor of restricting access to American ports in the same manner we restrict access to American airports, national flag only, plus full financial, operational, and technical vetting.
Yes that accounts for the differential in the fleet ages. The surprising thing about the ship ages (and why I included them) to me was that the average JA fleet is not 40 plus years old as one might think based on commentary in other threads where JA ships were depicted as decrepit.
It seems the old ODS program has been replaced by the MPS program. But that is only based on internet searches. To me it seems the money still serves the same purpose as the old ODS though. To provide a subsidy to ensure enough militarily useful ships are maintained under US flag. The question is is the current allotment of 60 ships in the program (all that is funded) “enough”. Is that the number DOD provided to congress or the number those genius’ came up with?
It appears the CCF is still around which seems to provide tax advantages to owners building US flag ships to replace old ones. In that sense this money would modernize a fleet. But is it funded? To what level?
I still don’t see what motivates a US company to flag in to a second register though. At least under my stipulations that JA provisions remain in force and that those ships do not qualify for MPS program. And with the further stipulation that the top 4 officers are licensed US citizens. The cost of those officers alone with an assumption that those ships are held to same or higher material standards as present flags would seem to suggest the cost would be higher than their present costs?
As I said perhaps only the 18 ships NOT currently under the MSP (and still considered militarily useful) would go for it but then the US unlicensed crew jobs would be lost. A loss in jobs and a decrease in operating costs sounds like a typical win for the owners not the US merchant marine in general.
If the DOD has a need beyond MSC they should fund MPS to higher levels. This would seem easier and quicker than setting up a second register. If the SECDEF is serious.
EXACTLY! A offshore resister with mostly all foreign national crewmembers is not going to solve any shortfall of mariners for a surge sealift and that is what this thread is “supposed” to be about. Besides, many of these FOC ships owned by American corporations are not the ships that TRANSCOM needs in an emergency. What it needs are Ro/Ro’s and lots of them.