With at least ten years of bust for ever three years of boom, is a seagoing career really worth it if you were asked by a young person today and how would you explain your response?
I’ll start by saying my answer to the question would be no unless they were so dedicated to such a career that they might well suffer many years of hardship in the hope that a secure steady and good paying job just might come their way in the end. I would also say to the person that they should drop the ideas of the romance to sailing the seas of the globe and tell them that it is a job only which can become a trap in end. I would tell the person to go to one of the state academies but not to Kings Point since it really is not a true maritime school and that they should give up on the ideas of the glory or ease of being on the bridge and choose to be an engineer so to have the greatest marketability in the entire industry. Masters and mates are climbing on top of each other looking for good positions but engineers will always be in greater demand even during the down times.
Going to sea can be a gratifying, but just as likely an unforgiving industrial career with sometimes good pay yet many a price to be exacted for one’s dedication to it.
Absolutely. Just had three cadets leave to go back to school. They’re exited to start their career soon. Plus, I’ve had a few guys from the deck upgrade recently as well. Going from the deck to the bridge isn’t a raise, it’s a change of lifestyle. There may be more schooling with STCW, but within 4 years of time, you can easily make six figures. That’s hard to beat most anywhere else. Now, I would not advise or dictate anything to anybody as far as a career choice - I would just give them the information and let them make a decision. If offshore was their choice, I would not say they’re making a bad choice because of X,Y and Z. I would more or less educate them on what to expect and what to stay away from. If it was bad, I would be doing something else myself.
The mountains of regulations and paperwork continue to grow as the respect of the job declines I just can’t imagine what the industry will look like twenty years from now. Shattered promises of a decent retirement and stagnated wages to the point where friends make the same if not more working ashore. Top management positions clogged with guys who have been divorced multiple times along with poor money management and bankruptcies that will continue to keep people out here struggling way beyond their prime thus making the people below them suffer as they endlessly wait to score the higher paying top positions which the bankrupted & divorced people refuse to let go of. Our license (ops I mean credential!) dismissed into a silly little red book with a recent crummy print yourself ugly looking certificate option. Unhealthy food options for months on end with long thankless seven day workweeks away from loved ones. Ever increasing courses, mandates and physical requirements to keep your license and job while the companies endlessly search for ways to cut your wages…need I go on?
Wow reading this makes me realize how bitter I’ve become on the job. For the first several years I loved what I did, the travel, tradition, money, ships, people, personalities etc etc
[QUOTE=anchorman;41282]Absolutely. Just had three cadets leave to go back to school. They’re exited to start their career soon. Plus, I’ve had a few guys from the deck upgrade recently as well. Going from the deck to the bridge isn’t a raise, it’s a change of lifestyle. There may be more schooling with STCW, but within 4 years of time, you can easily make six figures. That’s hard to beat most anywhere else. Now, I would not advise or dictate anything to anybody as far as a career choice - I would just give them the information and let them make a decision. If offshore was their choice, I would not say they’re making a bad choice because of X,Y and Z. I would more or less educate them on what to expect and what to stay away from. If it was bad, I would be doing something else myself.[/QUOTE]
I’ve got a 1600t Master and I have been out of work for a year! I can’t say it’s a good career, not with all the schools training and time I’ve put in. And wages have steadily declined over the years where we are making early 1980’s wages in real dollars.
Anchorman has it dead on. Going ashore in '97 was singularly the biggest mistake in my life. Yeah, I made more, get to sleep in my own bed 365, drink a beer and order a pizza anytime I want. But, I work my ass off 52 weeks of the year. Nobody cooks my meals or does my grocery shopping, or does my dishes. I have to commute more than 2 flights of stairs. A couple of years ago, our raise was based on cost of living rate, minus food and gas (which had jumped to $4). Be very careful of what you suggest. Give the pros and cons as you see it, and suggest they talk to someone else as well.
Wages, benefits and so forth are under pressure both ashore and at sea. Sure going to sea has gotten worse in the past few years in terms of the treatment of mariners, wages and conditions but from my point of view the same thing has happened shoreside. In relative terms going to sea is no worse then it ever has been.
As far as young people today I think that there is going to be a shortage of mariners soon and (relative) conditions will improve.
[QUOTE=c.captain;41280]Masters and mates are climbing on top of each other looking for good positions but engineers will always be in greater demand even during the down times.[/QUOTE]
I had mentioned in a contract negotiation several years ago that it did not take Pythagoras to conclude that elimination of entry level engine positions would exacerbate the engineer shortage. Not only no one to move up but many engineers left the industry for power plants and the railroad seeking better working conditions.
My pissing and moaning (not to be confused with whining) has at least changed the utility rating to DEU to broaden the entry level options in our last contract. I was encouraged to see movement toward more engine room training programs. It wasn’t my skills at the table that brought this about. The company just found it to be cheaper than demurrage.
[QUOTE=c.captain;41280]With at least ten years of bust for ever three years of boom, is a seagoing career really worth it if you were asked by a young person today and how would you explain your response?
I’ll start by saying my answer to the question would be no unless they were so dedicated to such a career that they might well suffer many years of hardship in the hope that a secure steady and good paying job just might come their way in the end. I would also say to the person that they should drop the ideas of the romance to sailing the seas of the globe and tell them that it is a job only which can become a trap in end. I would tell the person to go to one of the state academies but not to Kings Point since it really is not a true maritime school and that they should give up on the ideas of the glory or ease of being on the bridge and choose to be an engineer so to have the greatest marketability in the entire industry. Masters and mates are climbing on top of each other looking for good positions but engineers will always be in greater demand even during the down times.
Going to sea can be a gratifying, but just as likely an unforgiving industrial career with sometimes good pay yet many a price to be exacted for one’s dedication to it.[/QUOTE]
And just how is Kings Point NOT a “true maritime school”? I would say that of all the academies, it allows the student real life experience in that there is no school ship for training. All sea time during the four year program (or five year for some special folks) is obtained on “commercial” (quotes for MSC) vessels. Now, this isn’t to say that one can’t get good training on a school ship, but I feel that a new officer that has already been on the bridge or deck plates of a “real” vessel has a better opportunity to experience actual sea going working and living conditions. Now, I do understand that many KP kids do not always show the commitment that someone else might, but that is largely the result of the application process to the school. Many are there because it was the second or third choice for them. It certainly can effect attitudes. But not a “true maritime school”? I beg to differ. For the record, I did graduate from KP. I have, however also spent time at two state schools and am familiar with them. I certainly would not be so foolish to not think of them as true maritime institutions, though.
That aside, I would recommend it to anyone, without reservation. Of course they would have to realize going in that their life is going to be vastly different from anything anyone else experience, but there are greater rewards; and greater sacrifices. I would also recommend that the new mariner not necessarily limit themselves on US flag vessels. That was probably my biggest mistake when I was sailing. I still would not trade my seagoing experience for anything.
[QUOTE=cmakin;41306]And just how is Kings Point NOT a “true maritime school”?[/QUOTE]
Sorry to poop on your alma mater, but KP is a military academy FIRST and a maritime training school SECOND. They train future active duty or at least reserve Naval Officers but due to the school’s mission and attachment to MarAd, they throw in the nautical training to legitimize their funding from Congress. My guess is that the school’s leadership would toss out the maritime training in a heartbeat given the chance. Why have they had so many superintendents, etc… from the Marine Corps? Has there ever been a superintendent with an unlimited master’s license or at least who came from a long and successful career as a merchant marine officer (master or chief engineer)? The school has generally always been run by ex Naval officers or lifetime MarAd bureaucrats.
Yes, sea year is unique to KP and one of the positives to say about the school but other than that, the overall training for a seagoing career is not what it should be. What the hell does a regiment have to do with being a merchant marine officer? No, KP “used” to be fine maritime training school but lost that at least 25 years ago. My personal experience is that most KP’ers don’t work out longterm as seafarers but those from all the state schools do.
Of course all of this should be in a poll of it’s own. Who makes the best overall maritime officers? KP, State schools, military service or hawsepipe? Anybody want to start that one here?
[QUOTE=c.captain;41308]Sorry to poop on your alma mater, but KP is a military academy FIRST and a maritime training school SECOND. They train future active duty or at least reserve Naval Officers but due to the school’s mission and attachment to MarAd, they throw in the nautical training to legitimize their funding from Congress. My guess is that the school’s leadership would toss out the maritime training in a heartbeat given the chance. Why have they had so many superintendents, etc… from the Marine Corps? Has there ever been a superintendent with an unlimited master’s license or at least who came from a long and successful career as a merchant marine officer (master or chief engineer)? The school has generally always been run by ex Naval officers or lifetime MarAd bureaucrats.
Yes, sea year is unique to KP and one of the positives to say about the school but other than that, the overall training for a seagoing career is not what it should be. What the hell does a regiment have to do with being a merchant marine officer? No, KP “used” to be fine maritime training school but lost that at least 25 years ago. My personal experience is that most KP’ers don’t work out longterm as seafarers but those from all the state schools do.
Of course all of this should be in a poll of it’s own. Who makes the best overall maritime officers? KP, State schools, military service or hawsepipe? Anybody want to start that one here?[/QUOTE]
Oh, you are not pooping on my alma mater. Trust me, I can do enough of that on my own. I see that you aren’t very much aware of the Superintendents, either. KP is very much a maritime school first. It isn’t even part of the Defense Department. Marine Corp? I believe there was only one that was a Marine. You may want to do a bit of research when it comes to that position. As far as the quality of the officer, I don’t believe that any one school, type of school, or hawsepipe makes a difference. I believe that it is the quality of the man, and not his training that makes a good officer. I have worked with/for/under both good and poor officers from all three sources and wouldn’t be so presumptuous as to discredit anyone based upon how they got their license. That would be a case of bad leadership. Nor would I paint with such a broad brush. Seafareres from ALL the state schools work out in the long run? No exceptions? Really.
As far as who makes the best maritime officer? It is the individual that is motivated to be one, regardless of whether or not he attended KP, Mass, Maine, any other school or worked their way up.
Which shall it be Mr. cmakin…sabres or pistols? Why don’t we just keep it less bloody, shall we…after ten years from graduation how many KP’ers are still going to sea as seafarers? I say not many in comparison to the graduates from the state schools, ex military or hawsepipers. Also, tell me that KP’ers do not have a reputation for being a wee bit full of themselves for having graduated from the “world’s best maritime academy”. Tell me with all honesty if they did not feed you that one over and over again beginning with your indocrination? Twenty six years of my working on all manner of vessels and the number of Kings Pointers I sailed with are a small fraction compared to the others. I honestly cannot say that it was even 5%! Hell, even you left seafaring to follow a shoreside path.
My premise here in this thread was whether to recommend “going to sea” to a young person, not to just work in the maritime industry. If a guy was guaranteed of a becoming a pilot in Port Everglades, I’ll tell him he was a fool not to go to Kings Point if that is what it would take to get him there but the sad fact remains that for every mariner who gets the “dream job” there are probably nineteen who just end up serving on ships or rigs or workboats their whole working lives. It likely becomes just that and nothing more and more often that not end up facing a fair degree of hardship, adversity or struggle. Many mariners find their way early in their careers and end up doing quite well, but you sure do read a lot of posts here from mariners who are frustrated, disenfrancised and trying to find the right path to getting their careers to a place where they want to be but not finding that path to be an easy one to find or follow.
I still say that a person better love it with their life before signing on to a seafaring career.
[QUOTE=cmakin;41311]As far as the quality of the officer, I don’t believe that any one school, type of school, or hawsepipe makes a difference. I believe that it is the quality of the man, and not his training that makes a good officer.[/QUOTE]
cmakin,
I really like that statement. I wish everyone thought that, but unfortunately that’s not a view shared by many even though it’s the only one that makes any practical sense. At least I know that there are some people out there that got it right. I generally hate the stereotypical preconceived Bull Shit that seems to be unique to our industry.
I’d recommend a seagoing career to a young person with a few caveats. You need to attend a maritime academy or be prepared to spend an almost equal amount of money and time doing it on your own thru the hawsepipe. The better paid “seagoing” jobs don’t entail a lot of seagoing as they are associated with the oil and gas industry. You could spend 30 years going to sea in the O&G industry and never see a port more exotic than Fourchon or Leeville LA., not that they aren’t exotic in their own way. If you choose to go the deepsea route the only choice for a decent living is being a member of a union and I’d recommend MEBA [speaking as an engineer]. Of course MSC is another choice but you won’t be home much so you better have an extremely understanding spouse or none at all.
There is an alternative if you feel you must work over water and that is get into the drilling end. Most drillers, toolpushers, and drilling superintendents make as much or more than the majority of masters and chief engineers currently employed and the drill guys don’t have to worry about obtaining the blessings of USCG, STCW, TWIC etc until they get to the OIM level. No four year maritime school required, just a willingness to learn.
[QUOTE=anchorman;41314]cmakin,
I really like that statement. I wish everyone thought that, but unfortunately that’s not a view shared by many even though it’s the only one that makes any practical sense. At least I know that there are some people out there that got it right. I generally hate the stereotypical preconceived Bull Shit that seems to be unique to our industry.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, anchorman. Oh, and as far as preconceived stereotypes? No, not unique to the maritime/offshore/career at sea/oceangoing community at all. And that is too bad. I can tell you what I wrote is probably one of the most important things that I learned once I started sailing as chief. Believe me, when I would sign on and folks found out I was a KP’er, I took a lot of flack for it. Not for very long though. I do recall at one point I had an assistant and he didn’t know how or where I got my license. After a couple of hitches, it came up in a conversation. He said that he didn’t believe me and that I made it up. I almost took it as a compliment.
I would recommend a seagoing career to a young person without reservations. I got out of the Air Force in 1997. I did not have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. I was living with my grandmother driving a $300 car. The windows didn’t roll down and the AC didn’t work. I had no idea what I was going to do with the rest of my life. The one thing that I did have was a job as a deck hand that allowed me to work as much as I wanted. It did not take long to figure out that being a deck hand is not the best gig. I do disagree with the engineer route though. I think the better paying positions are bridge positions overall. I also think that the working conditions for deck guys is better than the engineers. Along the way I was undecided if working on boats was really what I wanted to do, well I guess I knew I loved the water, but I was in love with a woman that I could not stand to be away from. So I took a sales job at a funeral home. Couldn’t keep a steady check. Then I worked a year as an Insurance agent for AIG. Once again the checks were not steady or reliable. So with my tail between my legs, a wife and 6 week old son counting on me to provide for them, I went back on the boats in August 2000. This time I was back for good. No more chicken shit pipe dreams of a land job that promised everything that a boat job offered. I came to terms with the fact that I would have to make the sacrifices that everyone is talking about and I did. 10 years later I am here. Not exactly where I want to be, but definitely in a good spot with room to grow and my responsibilities as a father, husband and provider are being met. I am exactly where I am supposed to be and am very thankful to have made it this far. The thing about a maritime career is that anyone can do it if they want to bad enough. The only limiting factor is the ambition of the individual.
You know, this thread got me to thinking (not always a good thing). C.Captain stated something to the effect that a seagoing career is different from a maritime career. The difference being who was still at sea after ten or more years. Of course the main thrust of this thread is whether or not we would recommend a seagoing career to a young person today. I can say that I did as much for my kids, but they wanted nothing to do with it. To me, that is their loss, however they are both hard working kids, so I have no complaints.
I have to state, however that a career started when one is young often changes. My seagoing career ended when the company I was sailing for sold my vessel and the new owner only wanted be to stay on board long enough to train their engineers (didn’t happen). It also coincided with the birth of my first child, and I was fortunate enough to get a job with ABS. Ten years after being with ABS, I again changed careers and became what I am now, a loss adjuster. My point is, I believe that most folks change their careers. This is whether or not they go to sea. People’s lives change; their wants, needs and interests change; job availability changes, etc. Had things gone differently for me, I may well have continued at sea. Yes, there were changes, and in some way the job was becoming a grind; but the rewards, in my view, made up for that. Looking back, though, I don’t have any regrets coming ashore. I feel that my seagoing past gives me a different (and dare I say better) perspective on many things that those without that kind of background do not have. I am, however, happy that my changing careers have always been in the maritime industry.
I do feel for young folks today that shipping HAS changed. For quite a few US mariners, a seagoing career means working in the oil patch. That is something that I never did until I came ashore. To me, there are very few things more satisfying than completing a long ocean crossing by sea and getting into the rhythm of making port calls overseas. Even the grind of a coastwise route has a certain pace, albeit a challenging one. That is why in my first response to this thread I made mention of not restricting one’s self to the US flag fleet.
I could hook you up Doug Pine. My step-dad is still in the business. Maybe I could get a kick back. You are getting a little long in the tooth and being a responsible individual I know you don’t want to burden your loved ones with difficult decisions during a time of mourning. Let me know if I can be of assistance.
