STCW Rest Period Questions

Situation: unlimited tonnage container vessel in international trade. Manilla Amendments to STCW that went into effect on January 1, 2012 require (1) 77 hours rest in any 7 day period, (2) 10 hours rest in any 24 hour period, (3) rest may be divided into no more than periods where one is a minimum of 6 hours, subject to some limitations. Master and Chief Mate regularly do not get minimum required rest, primarily because of pilotage, dockings/undockings, and in port obligations. Night mates or coastwise mates would be of limited help to Chief Mate and no help to Master on US coastwise portion of voyage and are not available on foreign portion of voyage.

Questions: What are the consequences of these regular violations? My understanding is that the vessel could be detained and/or the company fined by port state control when on foreign voyage, but what about in the US? Has the USCG implemented regulations regarding the new rest hours and what would be the consequences of violations? Would the company still be subject to detention and fines? Is the Master subject to a fine? If there was an accident that was attributable to a violation of rest hours, could Master be exposed to civil liability?

This link may be useful in answering your basic questions abt USCG policy. Be mindful of STCW applicability to watchstanders v. non-watchstanders.

I came across that as well last night and you’re right, it does provide clarification on USCG policy regarding enforcement of the new rest rules.

Next question is does anyone know what the consequences would be for violation of the old/current rest rules? Would the company still be subject to detention and fines? Is the Master subject to a fine?

[QUOTE=+A465B;76261]This link may be useful in answering your basic questions abt USCG policy. Be mindful of STCW applicability to watchstanders v. non-watchstanders.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-01-04/pdf/2011-33818.pdf[/QUOTE]

Hours issues seem to only come up during 2692 investigations. Then you get burned by license forfeiture.

If the violations were actual, routine planned or regular in nature, or records falsified (which can be determined) - one might think the port state penalties would reflect the seriousness of that v. an un-intended one off or rare violation. Should an incident occur traceable an hours violation, in addition to what penalties flag and port states might impose, there might also be costly breach of warranty issues for insurance or other contracts. Cannot speak to personal liability issues of Master - but US persons on US flag ship with violation in US waters and an incident resulting might indeed have a rough go with liability issues.

Sorry - I do not have USCG specific penalties in hand but you might find it in one of the policy docs they post online through the main website or some of the port websites - which have added references / policy docs posted from time to time. USCG MSO Miami used to have some good stuff posted.

What about the new regulations that say we are not to be working straight 12 hour days anymore? Every ship I’ve ever worked on (except a few union vessels with true voluntary overtime) have had us working 12 hours a day as per schedule. Sometimes we had to work more, for things like docking/undocking, drills, etc. As far as I can tell, from reading the new regs, now we are ALL breaking the law. Anybody have any answers for how we are supposed to comply with the new rules???

[QUOTE=JP;76453]What about the new regulations that say we are not to be working straight 12 hour days anymore? Every ship I’ve ever worked on (except a few union vessels with true voluntary overtime) have had us working 12 hours a day as per schedule. Sometimes we had to work more, for things like docking/undocking, drills, etc. As far as I can tell, from reading the new regs, now we are ALL breaking the law. Anybody have any answers for how we are supposed to comply with the new rules???[/QUOTE]

I was going to post a new thread asking some of these same questions, but I’ll hijack this one instead and add to the discussion.

I honestly do not know how any standard US shipping operation does NOT break the Manilla rest-hour rules, especially in the ATB trade. Right now, it is my understanding that the only ones who really seem to care inside the US are SIRE auditors, and there it depends on your guy. I say this because one of our sister ships went through a SIRE where the auditor went through log books, comparing operations to who participated, then compared their rest logs to see if that operation was properly acounted for, then tallied up all the hours appropriately. From a USCG point of veiw, I don’t think there are any serious reprecussions at this point, but tanker operators should beware. My company is doing it’s best to comply with the rules and has taken a pretty serious approach. We use a computer program to plan and track hours. We run with four mates on a ship, 6 ABs, and 2 OSs, and we have a diffiult time not breaking the rules, especially for the ordinarys. I really don’t see how it is possible to do the operation with any fewer people, yet most other companies claim to be doing just that.

Just for correction, you are allowed to work 12 hours in a day, 14 is the daily limit, but you must get 77 hours of rest over 7 days which basically means you are allowed to average 13 hours a day max. If you work 14, you’ll have to make up for it by working less thereafter. And there are exceptions that you can use, which if you think the base rest-hour rules are confusing, try those on for size. And technically, drills are not work hours according to the regs. You really have to sit down and read the stuff line by line, again and again. It is pretty confounding at first, but there is sense to be made out of it if you are careful about it. The first thing to remember though is that this isn’t so much to do with WORK hours, it is the REST hours that is the real crutch of the issue here, and the Manilla Ammendments are worded to emphasize such (ie. they don’t talk about max hours you can work in a day, they talk about max hours between rest periods…)

The killer tends to be the “10 hours in not more than 2 periods, one of which must be at least 6 hours” rule. You might have 14 hours of rest in 24, but poor plannng with a 25 minute dinner relief in the middle of a rest period, and bam, you have now broken the law. It is easy to do. The other issue, which is hard to get your head around, or even calculate is the roving 24 hour period. It is not midnight to midnight, or noon to noon, it is ANY 24 hour period… starting now… or now… or at 0100… or 1535, etc, etc… any period. You absolutely need a computer program to calculate it, it is impossible without, and you have to pre-plan everyone’s hours, especially around mooring ops where people are up off-watch at random hours. You routinely have to “bank hours” a day or so prior to a mooring op or something similar to make sure people have a surplus of rest hours to use in case things change, which they always do. People who get paid OT of course don’t like this so much because they might be told that because of the hours they may be required to work tomorrow, they are not allowed to work today.

My question is, for guys working on 3-mate tankers, or 2-mate ATBs, are you seriously complying with these rules, or just dogging it? I’ve worked on the latter and that was the case, but in the future it won’t be so easy to get away with. Curious to see if anyone else is taking it was seriously as we are and how you are going about it. The USCG is going to have a rude awakening. They will soon find out that the manning cuts that they have been accomplices to for the past half century don’t fly with international rest-hour rules and will get vessels detained overseas more and more frequently; you physically can’t do the operation inside of the rules with so few people.

http://www.imo.org/mediacentre/pressbriefings/pages/stcw-hours-of-rest.aspx
http://www.professionalmariner.com/Web-Exclusive-2013/Clawson-Coast-Guards-STCW-policy-letters-provide-window-into-future-of-rest-hours-endorsements-ECDIS/

Teach your deck crew how to moor a vessel properly so you don’t needed eight deckhands on deck. I’ve moored a 700 foot ATB with two men on deck and been faster than most ships I have seen. And on an ATB they usually don’t call off-watch personnel for any operations other than drills (that I have ever seen). That’s how tugs work six hour watches, the off watch people are never needed (the mate is fully competent so the captain never has to get up off watch).

It’s all in the dyneema. Don’t understand why ships don’t deal more in modern lines though.

The rest time can be made up while cargo is going on, assuming the old man is cool with breaking watch and your company doesn’t make the mate handle cargo.

Annnnnnnnnd, off topic.

Here we go… First things first, this has absolutely nothing to do with personnel competency, get over yourself. It is apples to oranges from a manuevering stand-point and you know that; don’t play dumb about “well my mate can dock my tug single-handedly, why can’t a ship? hum dum???” “ship mates are incompetent… hum dummm” C’mon. If that is your serious attitude, then we can just stop right here. I thought this was a forum for professionals.

Anyhow, this is also interesting because I worked ATBs doing 6 and 6, tieing up the unit w/ two guys, one of which was off watch half the time and routinely breaking rest-hour rules. 20 minutes 1/L to A/F, no problem. Try doing the same with 14 double, split drum winches with 2" jacketed spectra, at a proper ship dock, running proper leads with either line boats or passing messengers, and there is no way you are doing that even close to safely with 2 guys, or in less time than a crew of 4 each working the ends, sorry, but that is some serious bull. Sure, on the ATB we parted lines, got lines hung up on docks, ripped things off of docks, pulled winches apart, etc, usually because there simply was no one availble to watch the other end or from a cavalier attitude such as the one on display here. It was all followed by a slap on the wrist and nothing more; that was tugboating, shit happens. On a ship it is a full fledged investigation and probably someone’s ass. A tanker, especially in trade I work in now, simply isn’t allowed to have problems, especially mooring problems, for any reason. This is a question of what should be done, not could.

There is a severe difference in risk tolerance as well as the consequences of something going wrong, and that is the point here. You can get away with it because you are allowed to and have managed to keep most of your fingers and toes for people not to take serious notice; you’ve even fooled yourself. The 800lb gorilla in the room is the fact that ATBs are rule breakers and nothing more (a 700’ barge, give me a break, even you must be laughing at that); if the playing fields were truly even from a safety and regulatory stand-point, ATBs wouldn’t exist.

Back on topic… 2010 Manilla Amendments anyone? Was curious if anyone else is actually attempting to follow the rules and how they are making out?

I’m not saying ship mates aren’t competent, I’m saying that what you said about ATBs isn’t the norm.

I am saying though that most deckhands I have seen on ships are not nearly as competent as most tug deckhands, probably because they don’t handle lines nearly as much.

Plus, most of the time there are ten guys on deck on a ship with eight our so standing there doing nothing. They aren’t needed but called out anyway, why? Because that’s how it’s always been done so that’s what is “safe” and “good seamanship”. The result is breaking hours rules for no reason.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;110113]I’m not saying ship mates aren’t competent, I’m saying that what you said about ATBs isn’t the norm.

I am saying though that most deckhands I have seen on ships are not nearly as competent as most tug deckhands, probably because they don’t handle lines nearly as much.

Plus, most of the time there are ten guys on deck on a ship with eight our so standing there doing nothing. They aren’t needed but called out anyway, why? Because that’s how it’s always been done so that’s what is “safe” and “good seamanship”. The result is breaking hours rules for no reason.[/QUOTE]

Agreed that there are instances where there are too many on deck. However, that has rarely been my experience, and never with mooring. You are really out of the loop about a lot of shipboard operations. When you consider that the on-watch ABs are standing lookout and helmsmen approaching the dock, that leaves only off-watch guys to do anything, at least one of which has already filled in as a lookout relief at the mid-watch and an entire off watch as dinner relief if needbe, plus an off-watch to rig an accomodation ladder for a pilot, which in our trade and gross tonnage, we are always required to take, recency and/or federal pilotage doesnt cut it. We transit areas requiring escort tugs and tethering, the regulations that go with those require personnel on standby at all times to take a line or release a tether, thats an off-watch gang taking 2-hour shifts before or after their nearest watch, sometimes at both ends. Factor in a 3-5-hour transit which we routinely do, and you have at least two watches working off their normal hours, and thats before we get to the dock (or after). We have also done stores and trash underway, thats an entire off-watch gang too.

Then there is the issue of mooring lines… full-sized double, split drum winches (very common) require a minimum of 4 people to operate safely: an operator, two to handle each line on and off each drum, and at least one to watch the lines over the side. That’s the entire deck deptartment with mates (and following the COLREGS up top) at both ends. Sure you could sacrafice personnel… have the mate wearing 3 hats on the bridge (OICNW, lookout, helmsman, where no single job is being paid attention to appropriately), 2 people to operate a winch where neither can see the other end and only properly tend one line at a time (and both drums turning…) – none of that is remotely safe (the mate’s part being illegal), and it would take FOREVER to tie up that way with our equipment. There is also the whole other issue of dock stature and arrangement where full-scale ship docks lend themselves to much longer leads (with heavier lines) and longer tie-ups that can’t be dodged no matter the kind of vessel calling there. That’s a fact of life. Paying out 300’ of 2" spectra to a line boat which then has to take them to a dolphin, transfered to a crew up there and onto hooks happens only so fast. A mid-sized ATB might call at a ship dock but not necessarily be required to take full advantage of the arrangement, or vice versa, they might be slapped at a barge dock with the accompanying shitty arrangements normally found there and be forced into bad leads and mix-match of lines, which should take less time.

The original point being, when you start legitimately logging personnel work and rest hours while following all of the other regulations, it is extremely easy to break one or the other if you’re not careful. For those that haven’t had the joy of having to comply with these rules, it might seem easy to say “oh, just save hours at the dock” or “save hours underway” etc. But with the roving 24-hour period, something you did a day ago could affect you today or add to your hours in six days, and things change; ETAs, orders, docks, traffic, wx, etc, which throws off the plans. Hindsight is always 20/20, and you usually don’t discover it until you input it in the program and it tells you that your work hours were illegal! Plus, you want to keep things rolling as long as possible, you can’t just knock off the whole crew because you’ll be making landfall in 2 days; M/R has to be kept going, crews working, and the inevitable repair discovered today that needs to be done yesterday and will now consume everyone’s hours. Oh you forgot to save hours for that? Too bad. Log today under an exception and hope for the best. All of these things take people and time, the vast majority of which can’t be accomplished with a deckhand and tankerman doing everything on 6 and 6. On that note, we also tend to do far more of our own repairs and more thorough preventative maintenance precisely because we have the people and experience for it, plus the space for spare parts. The ATBs weakest link is the companies’ insistence on the smallest possible engineering crew. It isn’t uncommon for single-fuel ATBs to have a lone engineer with a phonebook as the engine department. God bless 'em, but there is only so much they can do alone. The dual-fuel behemouths will have more like 2 officers and an oiler, better, but if anything happens that requires both of them together, bam, rest hours gone.

Great read wafinator… Learned a lot. Not that you are looking for advise but with a little better communication skill displayed you could have had the whole site rowing with you on this thread. All the best…

[QUOTE=Starboard Ten;110225]Great read wafinator… Learned a lot. Not that you are looking for advise but with a little better communication skill displayed you could have had the whole site rowing with you on this thread. All the best…[/QUOTE]

I thought the communication skills were excellent. Damn good points made.
Thanks Wafinator. [what the heck is a wafinator?]

[QUOTE=tengineer;110228]what the heck is a wafinator?[/QUOTE]

The new type approved espresso machine; Stop-gap measure till STCW hours-of-rest is fully implemented.

Looking at the crewing from the past where I work at they use to have 6 men boats, these were river towboats. This was way before my time , you had a senior captain, jr. Captain referred to as a pilot, 2 deckhands, a engineer & a cook. Ever since I’ve been there they have been 4 men boats.The deckhands have taken over the duties of cook and to a lesser degree the engineer, they only do the most basic engineers job as our shop will travel for more complex jobs. We work 6 & 6. For the most part the captains won’t work more then 12 hours a day but on occasion will get up to help other captain. The deckhands however will get up often to do the business of tow building/breaking and other rat killing plus their deck duties which now include cook, engineer. I’m sure there are members here who have seen first hand the crewing getting smaller over the years. I don’t know if it will happen or not but with the new STCW might see a 6 man boat again, only with 3 captains, 3 deckhands.

It appears to me that the USCG only gets involved with ‘hours’ when a 2692 is submitted (when they have a mind to think it was due to rest issues) I don’t believe the USCG has the time or the budget to go around checking ‘hour work/rest logs’. This is somewhat akin to the issue on ‘Uninspected Towing Vessels’ regarding recency issues. No checking is done until AFTER a incident. They just don’t have the time. And their still are some who skirt the issue of the 12 trips, 4 which must be during darkness.

[QUOTE=SCgamecock;76324]I came across that as well last night and you’re right, it does provide clarification on USCG policy regarding enforcement of the new rest rules.

Next question is does anyone know what the consequences would be for violation of the old/current rest rules? Would the company still be subject to detention and fines? Is the Master subject to a fine?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=tengineer;110228]I thought the communication skills were excellent. Damn good points made.
Thanks Wafinator. [what the heck is a wafinator?][/QUOTE]

Thanks fellas, any input is welcome, that’s what this place is for. I know I have a tendency to ramble though, sorry 'bout that.

I’ll just leave this here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wafi
More akin to my tug days; not allowed to joke about that kind of stuff anymore though, usually…

A clearly articulated and soundly reasoned case, thanks.

[QUOTE=tengineer;110228]I thought the communication skills were excellent. Damn good points made.
Thanks Wafinator. [what the heck is a wafinator?][/QUOTE]

Thanks again for the well written details regarding manning your vessel operations. All I meant in my previous reply was that when you responded to Capt Phoenix with “Don’t play dumb”, “I thought this forum was for professionals”, “Get over yourself” and “You even fooled yourself”… You naturally alienate a segment of tug folk on GCaptain.

We are all emotional and sometimes unprofessional on GCaptain. Much of it is born from frustration… Just as these rest period rules create. Most of us reply with too much ego and often bravado maybe as Capt Phoenix did.

A writer as articulate as the Wafi Killer clearly is talented enough to “turn” a Capt Phoenix persuasively without publicly humiliating him. (And the other tug Captains who relate to him)

Absolutely no big deal. Meant as margin note to a great posting. Thanks for letting me waste a bit of everyone’s time.