ahhh miss those 1271’s :rolleyes:
Touche’ LoL. Guilty as charged.
Touche’ LOL
If he’s my brother then you’re my Daddy. Sea Daddy that is. Speaking of which, can I borrow a hundred bucks and the keys to the car?
THINK THE PROPOSED RULE MAKING DOES NOT APPLY/EFFECT YOU?
Read them again !! If the vessel is below 100grt mmc are not required? The ferry in NEW YORK that crashed and killed people, and was not following “Rules of the ROAD” by not having a “LOOKOUT” was/is a contributing factor. That ferry was below 100grt !! That incident gave fuel to the fire that the “PROPOSED RULE-Making” and STCW ie lay men terms. RULES/LAWS ARE GETTING MORE STRINGENT FOR EVERYONE!!! and those fuelling the fire are not feeling any of the brunt???
Take this scenario; Your navigating your 500-1599grt vessel down the southwest pass of the Mississippi, and some 98grt 180ft OSV slams into your port side. Even if there was a lookout on that boat, he/she does not have rfpnw cause it is not required as they do not have to have even a mmc. So even if there was/is a lookout they don’t know what they are supposed to be doing!! They don’t know lights, point system…The companies operating those boats will do the MINIMUM when it comes to USCG…SO YOUR 80,000+ education, assessments,…can all be taken away by someone with less than 5k in thier career. Their deckhands, with no mmc unaffected. You cannot take what is no there to take…Do you really want that?? If so, do not post your comments-don’t do anything, and when your renewal cost(s) you $10,000±$5,000 every 4.75yrs(gotta do it early these days) don’t complain. THE CHANGES DO NOT AFFECT/APPLY TO YOU!!
Probably best to check your facts before you go on a rant. The [I]Andrew J. Barberi[/I] has a displacement of over 2000 tons, and requires a Master AGT Inland licensed deck officer to sail her. NTSB report is here.
Every licensed mariner now holds an MMC unless he or she has not renewed the old paper license yet. Where are you getting your information?
[QUOTE=dougpine;23705]Probably best to check your facts before you go on a rant. The [I]Andrew J. Barberi[/I] has a displacement of over 2000 tons, and requires a Master AGT Inland licensed deck officer to sail her. NTSB report is here.
Every licensed mariner now holds an MMC unless he or she has not renewed the old paper license yet. Where are you getting your information?[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the same thing, but I was way to lazy to do someone else’s homework.
[B][I][U] So even if there was/is a lookout they don’t know what they are supposed to be doing!! They don’t know lights, point system…The companies operating those boats will do the MINIMUM when it comes to USCG[/U][/I][/B]
if they are on the bridge, working under the master, mate then the master, master should have mentioned the pointy end from the wheelie end, the OICNW should have instructed the lookout, weather they have RFPNW or not in what was expected, i did not have a license for several years in the yachting business and was driving hte boats better then the mates that had a license, only because I wanted to learn, having a license does not mean you know what you are doing, same as having the RFPNW, does not mean you know what you are doing, it is someone willingness to learn and do the job correctly
how much did the captain of the exxon valdez spend for his schooling and look what happened,
[QUOTE=pwrmariner;23704]Even if there was a lookout on that boat, he/she does not have rfpnw cause it is not required as they do not have to have even a mmc. So even if there was/is a lookout they don’t know what they are supposed to be doing!! They don’t know lights, point system…
[/QUOTE]
No one knows any of that stuff until they start their maritime career. Mr. 100 ton makes a good point. It is up to the Mates and Masters to make sure their lookouts are properly trained. Just because someone shows up in my pilothouse with a binder full of certificates I don’t assume they know a thing until they demonstrate their skills to me. Then we go from there regarding training they need in the real world.
[B][I][U]Just because someone shows up in my pilothouse with a binder full of certificates I don’t assume they know a thing until they demonstrate their skills to me[/U][/I][/B]
Well said, no offense to anybody who has a new license but how many have the experience to drive a boat, you can sit for a 200 ton mate license, a 1 week class, have 360 days working as on os and then become a mate having never stood a navigation watch in your life, does this make you qualified in the pilot house??? well you have a 1 week class certificate, i guess I would certainly trust him with my life and a 180 foot boat just because he went to school,NOT
schooling is ONLy part of what you need, a desire to do the job correctly, and the training, in my opinion is more important the some of the classes that the STCW is forcing people to take, I did a 1 week class on search/rescue/emergency procedures and learned NOTHING new that was not already covered in the AB class and the 100/200 class, just a waste of 1000 dollars but I have 2 pieces of paper now, guess I am now qualified in pwrmariner’s mind,I have participated in 2 search and rescues my last year in private yachting, I learned more in that time, we deviated from the textbook answers and came up with a better plan, we found the diver alive upcurrent over 5 miles from were the coast guard was searching from him, all against the textbook diagrams, captains training and a meeting on the bridge to discuss the situation with 4 people led to the rescue, you will NEVER learn that in a classroom, but i have my piece of paper now, still wondering what to do with it, any ideas
If he’s your Daddy then you may be our Love Child!!:eek:
[quote=dougpine;23705]Probably best to check your facts before you go on a rant. The [I]Andrew J. Barberi[/I] has a displacement of over 2000 tons, and requires a Master AGT Inland licensed deck officer to sail her. NTSB report is here.
Every licensed mariner now holds an MMC unless he or she has not renewed the old paper license yet. Where are you getting your information?[/quote]
Nothing like a little rant to get people responding first thanks for your thoughts. I will explain my rant one issue at a time. First issue, “Every licensed mariner now holds an MMC unless he or she has not renewed the old paper license yet.” On vessels LESS than 100grt, ONLY the licensed mariners’ have MMC. The deckhands, deckhand/engineer are not required and therefore do not hold MMC let alone STCW. Where am I getting my info from?? You asked; Answer 1st hand experience!! Also go to the PROPOSED RULE CHANGES!! It will state stcw and mmc are not required of unlicensed crew on vessels less than 100grt!!! Now the “Point System” is not the bow is the pointy end…When a lookout spots a target instead of saying “got a target over there” he/she should say " got a target 2points port bow" or whatever is applicable. Better if your lookout could say got a target over 50m showing us HER port side 2 points off port bow…Long ago in merchant marine world it was decided spotting targets and giving their location as “over there” was/is not acceptable. Mariners’ were supposed to give the targets’ relative bearings. But since relative bearings relied on a compass and it was not practical to have compasses all over. The point system was created.
As for the ferry being greater than 100grt, sorry my mistake. As to the certification(s)/education, let’s not knock it. Yes in reality you will have to improvise, but it was what you learned in a classroom that gave you the tools you needed to make sound improvisions. and yes a license a class etc does not make a captain…But you do have to start somewhere, maybe someone does not manuever a boat well at first, on ships when that happens they get a “docking pilot”. Give the person a break and train them, their not going to learn if your making fun…To me what would look even worse is a captain that could not dead reckon, plot a course,…etc. Get some GOM sea stories in here, of how the captain was/is border line illiterate. It don’t matter how well you can maneuver a boat if you cannot reach point b. So I would rather someone go to school and learn all the theory of, have some practical application plotting on charts,…etc. Before allowing them to dock,maneauver a boat…and yes there is skills that can only be obtained by getting your feet wet. The way one does that is the way it has been done in the merchant marine field for decades before. Stop knocking it, and train your crew, and if they refuse to be trained get rid of those. In my career I have worked with people that did not want to learn. They were just there for a paycheck. I am not kidding, a green deckhand was instructed on how to tie the boat up 8 times by 4 different people and still could not do it?? On the engine room side, I would hate to have to teach someone generator theory, diesel engine theory…That is what a class room is for. After they leave the classroom, and get on the vessel i got something to “build” on. That is how it should be, career long learning of class room and OJT. Even AGT masters and AGT chief engineers got something to learn…
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**suggest keeping it close at hand in the event you run out of TP while offshore??
No one on <100 ton boats has [I][B]ever [/B][/I]had to have a MMD, or now a MMC, except for the operator. That’s nothing new. I thought you meant that in the new STCW proposal the operators would not need a MMC, so my mistake I guess.
But before you assume that just because someone does not have a cute little red book, in my experience some of the most situationaly aware deckhands I ever had were on small (<100 ton) boats. Just because they didn’t have a fancy piece of paper didn’t equate to them not knowing how to identify and communicate the location of a target. If they worked for me they learned how to do it properly.
Personally I don’t like the point system, I’d much rather use relative bearings or even hear “Hey Cap there’s a target at two o’clock” instead of “two points abaft the starboard beam”, but that’s just me and I believe I’m probably in the minority. I think the reason for that is because I came up through the hawse and didn’t even know what a point was until I went to work for the Washington State Ferries. I got my original 500 ton Master Oceans license before I remember having the awareness of what a point is. But they train lookouts at WSF to give targets in points, so that’s where I learned about them. Points or not, believe me, there are some lookouts at WSF who have all the certificates you could ever want and I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them. There are a whole crop of ABs there who wouldn’t know a bowline if you showed them one, or how to make a back splice, or even what a fairlead is. And they go to classes all the time. Certificates don’t make sailors, mentoring does. There is precious little mentoring happening at WSF; I could safely say that I would have one of two digits left over after counting the number of deck officers at WSF who actually make it a part of their work day to properly mentor their junior mates and deckhands. But I digress…
In the end it all boils down to communication and training. I, even though I work at a maritime training school, think that the best possible training is hands-on, under the tutelage of a skilled mentor/assessor. Book learning is wonderful and adds to the discussion around the galley table, but it cannot and will not ever replace getting your hands on the equipment and learning by doing.
What’s missing on today’s under-manned merchant vessels is the luxury of having bodies on board enough to do training. ESPECIALLY in towing or anchor handling applications. The old way, where you started out as a deckhand or a wiper and basically apprenticed yourself up the ladder was in my humble opinion a better way of developing well-rounded officers and deckhands…
All the classes and certificates will never replace that system. They have their place and their value, but only as an adjunct to actually doing the job and having the knowledge and wisdom of your mentors passed down to you through time and repetition.
And to your point about illiterate captains, the best mentor I ever had in the GOM could barely speak, let alone read or write, but he could find his way up and down the Atchafalaya River in pea soup fog, and find any rig anywhere out there like no one I ever met. It was eerie. A sixth sense he had. He didn’t know a damn thing about the book side of navigating, he just did it. I don’t think I ever saw him look at a chart, let alone mark it up. I learned more about running the river and twin screw / bow thruster boat handling from him than from anyone else I ever sailed with. He was 76 years old when I sailed with him and had spent most of his life on those boats, from the beginning of the oil patch. I’m not making a case for being illiterate, I’m just pointing out that there is more to the job than knowing how to make pretty pictures on a chart.
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Doug I agree with you 10000%
you are right on, well said
I can not stand the point system either, I prefer the clock method better as you do and have found it better, faster and more reliable that points, i guess that is the old system but as many captain have told me, just keep it simple, it works better
[QUOTE=dougpine;23733]And to your point about illiterate captains, the best mentor I ever had in the GOM could barely speak, let alone read or write, but he could find his way up and down the Atchafalaya River in pea soup fog, and find any rig anywhere out there like no one I ever met. It was eerie. A sixth sense he had. He didn’t know a damn thing about the book side of navigating, he just did it. I don’t think I ever saw him look at a chart, let alone mark it up. I learned more about running the river and twin screw / bow thruster boat handling from him than from anyone else I ever sailed with. He was 76 years old when I sailed with him and had spent most of his life on those boats, from the beginning of the oil patch. I’m not making a case for being illiterate, I’m just pointing out that there is more to the job than knowing how to make pretty pictures on a chart.
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Don’t agree with you about much but this absolutely correct.
…I, even though I work at a maritime training school, think that the best possible training is hands-on, under the tutelage of a skilled mentor/assessor. Book learning is wonderful and adds to the discussion around the galley table, but it cannot and will not ever replace getting your hands on the equipment and learning by doing…
Dear Doug, I can not disagree with you more strongly. What you “think” is simply not supported by how people actually learn. Educators know how people learn and have for several decades. It is not a which is best; hands on or book argument. It is more accuratly described as, which tool is best suited to help learners accomplish the desired compitancies and outcomes. In other words, what do you want a student to do back at work after training?
There is a huge diffrence between knowledge and skills. In other words, knowing and doing. For example, I may need the Knowledge to 'List requred items in a Damage Controll Box" compared to “Demonstrate how to use a ceadar shingle to stop a leak in a steel hull.” These are two completly diffrent skills that require two diffrent types of training. But to be able to keep yourboat floating when taking on water a person needs both knowledge and skills.
Since you work in a formal education setting Im sure youll know about Bloom’s Taxonomy. The following link is a brief overview
http://www.nwlink.com/~Donclark/hrd/bloom.html
The NC/Inland mariner is being required to know and do more. You may agree or disagree. Personally, I think that is a good thing. Just in the short year Ive worked in the GOM as both an unlicensed deckhand on 98 ton boats and as an AB on a 900 ton boat I can say it scares me knowing several of my shipmates could not read above the 1st/2nd grade level. Why? Look around a boat. The bulkheads are full of safety plackards and labels. How does the engineer guy read logs? I wont boar you with what ifs. But reading is a mandatory requirment for any sailor in my book. So for the capable coonass tug captain who devine a course through fog but cant read or pass new licensing requirments I say get off your fat ass and lean how to read. Youll be a better captain for it and a more valuable employee.
Another soap box rant of mine is: "…I’ve done it for 20 years so now i can teach it…"
Experience does not automatically make a person good at what they do nor does it qualify them to become the sage educator. Ive sat through some pretty bad training recently. Ya they knew their content but had know idea how to help others learn. Its called: Expert To Amature In One Promotion. That is if you consider Trainer as a promotion. I do.
A little clue here. Its NOT about how to teach people. Its about how people learn.
Bob
[quote=dougpine;23733]
Personally I don’t like the point system, I’d much rather use relative bearings or even hear “Hey Cap there’s a target at two o’clock” instead of “two points abaft the starboard beam”, but that’s just me and I believe I’m probably in the minority.
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I’m with you Doug, I much prefer the relative bearing (but that is probably because I spent 24 years in the Coast Guard and that is what we always used and old dogs don’t like change!)
First thanks Bob for the post!!
Navigating a vessel through a channel in dense fog–We’ll if he could read the “rules of the road” he should have caught a line somewhere or pushed up. Cause what is a safe speed in zero visibility?? Those are the kind that mentors the next generation of captains–oh my?? I don’t believe in navigation by sixth sense…
As for hands-on vs book learning-Sorry your not going to get away from the classroom. Yes hands-on learning is great, but you need to also know “why”. Take the engine room for example; full of theory heat transfer=HVAC/R, internal combustion theory=Prime Movers,…etc.
Another soap box rant of mine is: "…I’ve done it for 20 years so now i can teach it…"
Experience does not automatically make a person good at what they do nor does it qualify them to become the sage educator. Ive sat through some pretty bad training recently. Bob[/quote]
We’ll put Bob, I ounce sailed with an old salt captain who was navigating by “sixth sense” to the wrong platform. The correct destination was visible, by the unaided eye about 90 degrees to port. Another old salt with 20yrs or so instructed me all generators outputed dc electricity and the transformer changed that to ac electricity.
As for the “point system”, at least you know what it is and therefore learned it at one time or another. You prefer a different method, great respectable. The brain is a muscle if you exercise it, it gets stronger. If you cannot read, and your running a boat on “sixth” sense. What are you doing to exercise your brain?
I did say that I’m not making an argument for illiteracy. Book knowledge is worthless without hands on training and experience. You don’t put a freshly graduated academy 3/M at the controls just because he knows how to carry a clipboard. But a guy who has been given the hands-on training and experience can do the job, and then go back and get the book knowledge. I speak from personal experience, by the way. I’m all for book knowledge, and accept the fact that we have to spend more and more of our time in classrooms. But you’ll never convince me that a guy who has all the certificates is somehow as prepared as a guy who has the hands-on training. It is a tactile job.