Sounds like Kings Point is Canceling Sea Term

Professional Mariner Forum
21

Are you guys nuts? Stop this conversation immediately lest you conjure up she whose name must not be spoken…cajaya. Uh oh, now I’ve gone and done it.

On a serious note, if this statement (OP) is to be taken at face value it is just too ludicrous for further comment as most of you have pointed out the obvious flaw in their thinking (no at sea days, no understanding that that is the work environment they will eventually enter). If it is scheming for a school ship it is foolhardy. If it is posturing to get what remains of US flag carriers that carry cadets to clean up their act I think they are holding a losing hand. In fact if I was running such a company and this was brought up I would take it as portent of bad things to come and stop carrying them altogether as not being worth the risk of future legal action from harassed cadets.

On the other hand, I don’t see how anyone can think that actual sexual or otherwise harassment is imaginary, that there aren’t ignorant buffoons out here with no concept of right and wrong or self control or sense of decorum. I would just prefer that the ships crew intervene long before lawyers need to be involved or even pea-brained mandatory training. Over on the knife thread someone said these young whipper snappers should have been taught at home how to handle knives with common sense. True enough. But some old geezers and young punks should have been taught how to treat women/people in general with respect (as earned and deserved of course).

22

[QUOTE=KPChief;185938]

If it is scheming for a school ship it is foolhardy. If it is posturing to get what remains of US flag carriers that carry cadets to clean up their act I think they are holding a losing hand.

Agreed. Who can fathom what this is even about. But a good chance it is one or the other of those. Nothing like crafting two sound strategies that nicely make the case for getting the school shut down. Perhaps that’s the whole point anyway.

23

The OP was just pointing out what USMMA posted on their alumni web page. For those without access here is a cut-and-paste from the horse’s mouth:

Please see the following announcement from the Academy concerning Sea Year:

While the Department of Transportation (DOT), the Maritime Administration (MARAD), and the United States Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA) have made consistent efforts to address sexual assault and sexual harassment on campus over the last few years, we’ve grappled with appropriate means of extending these efforts during “Sea Year” when the Midshipmen are off campus training on working U.S. merchant marine vessels. The safety of these young women and men are our highest priority, and the USMMA is standing down having Midshipmen serve on these vessels until it is assured that their training will be carried out in a safe environment.

On June 24th, MARAD is convening a Call-to-Action with the maritime industry to address these issues, as well as their overall safety, as we begin to develop a comprehensive plan that protects the Midshipmen.

We are making every effort to ensure an on-time graduation for any affected students.

External Affairs Office Contact
ExternalAffairs@usmma.edu

For better conspiracy theories then what we conjure up here go to the Facebook page of the U.S. Merchant Marine National Parents’ Association and read their comments.

24

Don’t be so sure that something bad let alone horrible didn’t happen.

Any regulars here ever hear about that brutal beating and sexual battery / sodomization perpetuated by a A/E against a fellow E/R dept member aboard Gulf Coast Transit / TECO’s first ship (bulker) they acquired and sent to North Korea in the very late 90s???

It most certainly happened (over several weeks) and the company covered the whole thing up because they were more concerned with bilges being pumped overboard in a less than legal fashion as directed by the C/E or 1A/E.

Ever hear about the sexual harrassment claims levied against a certain Chief Mate at USMM/MLL on either the S/L Integrity or Achiever in the mid 2000s??? It most certainly happened and it didn’t take long for the company to question a few of the long standing (Sea-Land, USMM, MLL) C/M’s previous female cadets (from various academies) and get the same stories. During that guy’s last trip, I worked a PRO shift at Wando Terminal in CHAS. 2 very attractive, very friendly, but very green female deck cadets boarded the ship at CHAS and came to the bridge. I just had a bad vibe about their arrival. My vibe was not… oh here comes a BS sexual harrasment claim. It was… oh boy, some asshole isn’t going to behave and the consequence is easily calculated.

DECK APE: As far as

Remember, the measure of harassment isn’t if someone is being harassed, it’s if they feel like they are being harassed even if they aren’t. The schools fill students’ heads with this, sends them out into the real world where everything offends their delicate sensitivities and naturally the students go back reporting sexual harassment, hazing and everything else. (Like a cadet who felt ‘harassed’ by Fox News being on TV at chow time.)
, I don’t think that is all that accurate. I don’t think the schools are filling the cadets heads with ideas. Most cadets are too inexperienced to know when to shut up and take it because it’s not harassment or when to speak up for themselves because they are most certainly being abused and harassed.

Any and all academies would be foolish not to spend time indoctrinating female cadets on what is and what is not acceptable behavior directed toward them by fellow shipmates (be it regular harassment or one of a sexual nature) , just as much as it would be prudent for them to spend time with male cadets teaching them the same (with more of a focus on regular harassment).

Tough love and reprimands for poor work/lack of attention to detail/punctuality, etc. has it’s place, but there is a line that can be crossed. The adults should know where that line is without much of a thought while for the cadets it can be much more of a grey area or a finite line the older mariner crossed with the cadet (male or female) way before they thought possible.

25

The coddled class apparently cannot handle a normal work environment? Mommy and daddy worried about their sweet pea being harassed in an actual work environment? Some little darling must have called home. Give me a break. These people are getting a free education at a “maritime” institute but cannot risk learning how to handle a little harassment in a maritime environment IF it happens at all?. Bet they got “participation” trophies during their formative years. As the father of sons and daughters let me assure you my children knew full well how to handle harassment whether sexual or any other well before they entered college age. What they hadn’t been warned about they figured out once they got into the real world. It’s part of growing up. The USMMA already has a low barrier for entry based on the SAT scores of current students but now apparently life itself scares them and their mommies and daddies. Shut this boondoggle down. I’d be embarrassed if it was my alma mater.

26

[QUOTE=Emrobu;185934]In my experience, sexual harassment and assault of women in the merchant fleet is very rare. I have only had one serious experience with it. It was the culture of my crews to be protective of me and the other women with whom I have worked on this issue. I never feel safer from this kind of thing than when I am at work. My crew-mates have always had my back. If there were a rapist on any of my crews, I would be more concerned for his safety than for my own. Its not particularly helpful to have administrative controls on something that is already well-controlled by our culture, and in fact it is possible and likely that making rape and sexual harassment into huge administrative issues could damage the culture, and make the workplace more hostile for women mariners.

On the other hand: I have seen the sexual abuse of boys offshore. Its an infuriating, unfair and sickening part of the culture of some international crews that I have worked with. I have seen powerful, wealthy European officers using their status to coerce young Filipino men into having sex with them. Those boys have no recourse at all, and it makes me unspeakably angry and sad to see. This is a problem that needs a solution, not this flavour-of-the-month cadet safety crap.[/QUOTE]

After reading all the blather about conspiracy theories about a scheme to get funding for a school ship and other such drivel, the post by Emrobu, a professional mariner who apparently just happens to be female, was inspiring. Would that more more mariners of either sex have so much as a fraction of her maturity and common sense. It would have been an honor to have been shipmates with a woman of her ilk (or a man, for that matter) on any ship. I’ll bet she was a fine shipmaster.

27

@ DeckApe #23

[QUOTE=DeckApe;185941]The OP was just pointing out what USMMA posted on their alumni web page. For those without access here is a cut-and-paste from the horse’s mouth:[/QUOTE]

That article was what I intended to refer to. Should have said “statement referenced in the OP”.

28

[QUOTE=KPChief;185956]@ DeckApe #23

That article was what I intended to refer to. Should have said “statement referenced in the OP”.[/QUOTE]

Here is what the general public sees.

[I]While the Department of Transportation (DOT), the Maritime Administration (MARAD), and the United States Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA) have made consistent efforts to address sexual assault and sexual harassment on campus over the last few years, we’ve grappled with appropriate means of extending these efforts during “Sea Year” when the Midshipmen are off campus training on working U.S. merchant marine vessels. The safety of these young women and men are our highest priority, and the USMMA is standing down having Midshipmen serve on these vessels until it is assured that their training will be carried out in a safe environment.[/I]

[I][I]On June 24th, MARAD is convening a Call-to-Action with the maritime industry to address these issues, as well as their overall safety, as we begin to develop a comprehensive plan that protects the Midshipmen.[/I]

[I]We are making every effort to ensure an on-time graduation for any affected students.

[B]​[/B]

[/I][/I]

29

This "call to action"is melodramatic and just plain silly.
When defending the Jones Act we always stress the need to be able to transport military supplies into war zones if the need may arise on US flagged ships manned by US mariners. The US Merchant Marine Academy is supposed to be in the forefront of providing officers to man these vessels but suddenly the college that trains them is scared they cannot send their students on ships lest they be harassed or MAYBE assaulted? Well I guess they know the quality of their students better than anyone. We all MAY be harassed and sexually assaulted at some point in our lives.It is how you handle the situation that proves your mettle. If any other service academy came out with such a chickenshit excuse for not sending entitled babies into the real world there would be congressional hearings. Yep, there needs to be a “call to action” and the action should be shut down this unneeded drain on the budget as it is just welfare for the timid privileged.

30

Emrobu is apparently a professional mariner who just happens to be female, and her post hits the nail squarely on the head. That’s inspiring. Would that more mariners of either sex have even a fraction of her maturity and common sense. It would have been an honor to have been shipmates with a woman of her character on any ship. I’ll bet she was a fine shipmaster.

      • Updated - - -

[QUOTE=Emrobu;185934]In my experience, sexual harassment and assault of women in the merchant fleet is very rare. I have only had one serious experience with it. It was the culture of my crews to be protective of me and the other women with whom I have worked on this issue. I never feel safer from this kind of thing than when I am at work. My crew-mates have always had my back. If there were a rapist on any of my crews, I would be more concerned for his safety than for my own. Its not particularly helpful to have administrative controls on something that is already well-controlled by our culture, and in fact it is possible and likely that making rape and sexual harassment into huge administrative issues could damage the culture, and make the workplace more hostile for women mariners.

On the other hand: I have seen the sexual abuse of boys offshore. Its an infuriating, unfair and sickening part of the culture of some international crews that I have worked with. I have seen powerful, wealthy European officers using their status to coerce young Filipino men into having sex with them. Those boys have no recourse at all, and it makes me unspeakably angry and sad to see. This is a problem that needs a solution, not this flavour-of-the-month cadet safety crap.[/QUOTE]

Emrobu is apparently a professional mariner who just happens to be female. It’s inspiring. Would that more more mariners of either sex have so much as a fraction of her maturity and common sense. It would have been an honor to have been shipmates with a woman of her ilk on any ship. I’ll bet she was a fine shipmaster.

31

[QUOTE=tengineer1;185959]… the action should be shut down this unneeded drain on the budget …[/QUOTE]

If every American flag operator, blue water or brown, simply refused to accept KP cadets the place would quickly wither and die of shame, ridicule, and a public awareness of how useless a waste of resources KP became many years ago.

We can’t afford to waste money giving them a privileged opportunity to participate in an industry where their school has trained them to be just another liability. The industry MARAD has worked so hard to destroy is still full of motivated individuals capable of attaining the highest levels of leadership and technical management. They know what they are getting into because they got into it voluntarily and stayed in it by taking responsibility for themselves and their working environment.

Let’s make sure this story is spread widely, let the public know that KP is afraid of the industry that has given its name to what has become a politically correct haven for alums. Their insult to the maritime industry should be sufficient to close the doors on the place.

32

[QUOTE=KPChief;185938]On a serious note, if this statement (OP) is to be taken at face value it is just too ludicrous for further comment as most of you have pointed out the obvious flaw in their thinking (no at sea days, no understanding that that is the work environment they will eventually enter).[/QUOTE]

As the OP, if this is aimed at me, you should be taking it up with the Owners of gCaptain as all I did was share an article that was posted by them. I did not take either side but I thought it was worth sharing.

Sorry if you took this personally because it in involves your Alma Mater.

33

we have all been watching it here now for years how KP continues its plummet into an abyss of irrelevance to the point where it is has become worse than a pathetic joke…

what it is is a $90M a year joke which does nothing, produces nothing and really has lost all its legitimacy in our industry as it marches down into that pit of a meaningless existence

why does the Congress not realize what they are wasting all that money on? Somebody needs to tell Chuck Schumer to shut the FUCK up when it comes to KP and lead a campaign to end this farce NOW!

34

[QUOTE=Tugs;185976]As the OP, if this is aimed at me, you should be taking it up with the Owners of gCaptain as all I did was share an article that was posted by them. I did not take either side but I thought it was worth sharing.

Sorry if you took this personally because it in involves your Alma Mater.[/QUOTE]

Whoa. What are you talking about? What’s got you tangled up? Let me rephrase.

IF the statement referenced in the OP (the one from the Academy)is to believed at face value (i.e. Not misquoted, not taken out of context, etc) which it sure seems it must be, they put that out intentionally THEN the concepts, thoughts, etc contained therein (the academy’s statement not your post)are ludicrous and really don’t require further comment.

I even then concur with the obvious flaws in the academy’s thinking. All put forth by other posters.

How do you take this as aimed at you? I thought it was worth sharing too. Thanks.

I don’t take much personally. I just do my job then go home. I don’t have a dog in this fight. You all can have at it with regard to closing the place. I’ve fulfilled my sailing obligation by about 60 times if not more and I still sail as chief. Yes all any horsepower and only foreign going (not coastwise). However, when the vitriol aimed at the institution strays too close to some very broadbrushed insults to anyone who went there I just gotta wonder where that comes from and - this is not aimed at you - where it gets you (the general you not you personally). If one really believes that they are operating with a closed mind and too dangerous to be at sea. Take each shipmate as they come. Again not aimed at you.

I thought my main point was that despite this ham fisted attempt (by the academy)at who knows what, there are those who walk among us who can perpetuate real incidents of harassment and that responsible, accountable crew members can stop it in its tracks.

I have no control over real, imagined or hypothetical situations posters can cite as demonstrating ALL such claims are false but I do know that is faulty thinking. And I don’t see how that statement can be seen as supporting the academy’s stated position. They are way off base and it’s what happens when people are out of touch.

35

Perhaps the school can issue the graduates Certificates of Participation suitable for framing and skip that whole license thingy.

36

[QUOTE=Lee Shore;185987]Perhaps the school can issue the graduates Certificates of Participation suitable for framing and skip that whole license thingy.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, make it available through an online course and save the taxpayer $90 million.

Of course then they would have to be protected from internet porn and MARAD would have to fund research into a program that protects online cadets from being forced to look at “dirty pictures.”

37

[QUOTE=KPChief;185983]Whoa. What are you talking about? What’s got you tangled up? Let me rephrase.

IF the statement referenced in the OP (the one from the Academy)is to believed at face value (i.e. Not misquoted, not taken out of context, etc) which it sure seems it must be, they put that out intentionally THEN the concepts, thoughts, etc contained therein (the academy’s statement not your post)are ludicrous and really don’t require further comment.

I even then concur with the obvious flaws in the academy’s thinking. All put forth by other posters.

How do you take this as aimed at you? I thought it was worth sharing too. Thanks.

I don’t take much personally. I just do my job then go home. I don’t have a dog in this fight. You all can have at it with regard to closing the place. I’ve fulfilled my sailing obligation by about 60 times if not more and I still sail as chief. Yes all any horsepower and only foreign going (not coastwise). However, when the vitriol aimed at the institution strays too close to some very broadbrushed insults to anyone who went there I just gotta wonder where that comes from and - this is not aimed at you - where it gets you (the general you not you personally). If one really believes that they are operating with a closed mind and too dangerous to be at sea. Take each shipmate as they come. Again not aimed at you.

I thought my main point was that despite this ham fisted attempt (by the academy)at who knows what, there are those who walk among us who can perpetuate real incidents of harassment and that responsible, accountable crew members can stop it in its tracks.

I have no control over real, imagined or hypothetical situations posters can cite as demonstrating ALL such claims are false but I do know that is faulty thinking. And I don’t see how that statement can be seen as supporting the academy’s stated position. They are way off base and it’s what happens when people are out of touch.[/QUOTE]

I have no problem with you, so let’s chalk it up to a bad day and I should have had that extra cup of coffee before posting.

38

I haven’t been to KP in a while but their previous T/V Kingspointer was a shallow draft cold war surveillance ship that could barely call Mallory Pier its berth. At low tide it was pretty much sitting on the bottom, they used to say it sinks twice a day. With that said it could only hold around 40 people max, it was a very tiny ship. I have heard they dredged and upgraded the pier but I doubt they did enough to dock a ship of any size there, especially not a training ship capable of supporting all KP cadets. Due to how KP sends its cadets out for 300+ sea days and there is a few hundred cadets out at sea at any time, the training ship would have to be in use nearly all year long.

As someone said earlier, there was a gay sex party happening at a faculty’s house on campus and an assistant from the transportation secretary was involved. Shortly after the Superintendent Adm Greene (sp?) shut that down, they came in and gutted the GMATS school on campus in retaliation. The GMATS school was the academy using the labs, classrooms, resources, and the training ship that was for the undergrad program for profit off of from every branch of the military as well as NOAA and other lesser known organizations. GMATS even funneled all recent graduates into their mandatory Navy Reserve course that they ran in San Diego. This course I recall them cutting orders that showed we were staying in lodging next to the Coronado base, yet we were to report to Miramar and stay in a hotel that was there. Also they had us sign for hotel bills that were $250-300/per night, which was some scam to fleece the government/make money.

Then shortly after I graduated there was the Grad program that was started up, then eventually it came out that they were stealing money from the undergrad program to fund it and some people actually got fired from the school.

To me the saddest part of the whole school was the labs. The newest diesel tech that they had was some mid 80s Sulzer, not that learning anything about shipboard equipment mattered as KP relies heavily on cadets learning that on their own during sea year.

At least when I get cadets from other schools on my ship they are able to relate to similar equipment on their training ship.

However over the past 6 years that I have sailed 1 A/E and had direct responsibility over the cadets, most were KP and were hard working and intelligent. Taking away their sea year is just an insane idea, they certainly won’t learn anything in the KP labs or “training ship”.

I’m not going to lie, I was told come to KP and you can fly Navy jets off of carriers. I went there with that intention, it wasn’t until I experienced sea year that I decided I wanted to sail. Sea year converts lots of people that came to KP for other reasons. I feel bad for the current cadets.

Sorry for the long post, but if I was running a state school I would start filling the ships with cadets so that if/when KP pulls their head out of their dark place there won’t be any ships for them.

39

Brainstorming on what KP could do to resolve their student’s sea time issue. Anyone think of more?

Most realistic

  • Send their cadets to other maritime academies’ school ships during their summer terms.
  • Rent a school’s ship in their off-season.
  • Send their students to serve on USS ships.
  • Send their students to serve on USNS/NOAA ships.
  • Vet companies for compliance and send them to approved ships.
  • Belay their stand-down as it is impractical and poorly thought out.

And on the extreme end

  • End the practice of earning merchant mariner licenses at KP.
  • Close KP.
  • Lobby for their own ship.
  • Lobby for an exemption to sea time requirements.
  • Lobby for a change of what qualifies as sea time.
40

Tattoo giant dicks on all their foreheads and make them walk the plank.