Silly letters you have received

Deven:

It appears you are having issues with sea service.

The 12 versus 8 hour rule is not really confusing. This has NOTHING to do with what you work like, how many hours your company says you must work each day, or what the captains perception is.

If you work on a vessel (any vessel) with a Certificate Of Inspection that states the crew must consist of 3 watches, then it is simple, you CAN’T take a 12 hour day. No matter what your company says about how much you can be required to work in a day, it don’t matter! It may seem unfair, but the regulations all refer to the ‘standard and accepted watches’ for whatever vessel you submit seatime for. The extra 4 hours you work is NOT watch standing, but maintenance. This is NOT creditable.

Unfortunately Uncle Sams Confused Group has just recently realized that there have been YEARS of incorrectly written sea service letters, with 12 hour days being ‘illegally’ credited for license applications. So now if they don’t accept it, it is up to the mariner to argue their case to have the 12 hour days accepted at 1.5.

I don’t recall what type vessels you work on, but working aboard towing vessels is not so cut and dried, depending on tonnage, voyage route and length, and domestic or international. But, Towing vessels DON’T have a COI either!

I’m not going to argue legal definitions with you guys. Some want to take the MSM as law, yet it is not. I’m trying to find the exact report where the MSM states its reason for intent. I did find the law that it cites, however, which states:

[LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535]"(b) Every person may be rated an able seaman and qualified to
serve as such who is eighteen years of age or older; meets the
regulatory requirements with respect to sight, hearing, and physical
condition; meets the applicable professional knowledge examination
or educational requirements; and meets the following applicable
service requirements:[/LEFT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535][LEFT]"(1) ‘Able seaman’ qualified for unlimited sewice on any vessel
and on any waters shall have at least three years’ service on deck[/LEFT]
on vessels operating on the oceans or the Great Lakes." …
[LEFT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]… [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][COLOR=#373535][/LEFT]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#373535]"©
[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535]‘Service on deck’ means service in the deck department in work[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]
[LEFT][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#373535]related to the work usually performed aboard vessels by able seamen
and may include service on decked fishing vessels and on public
vessels of the United States. Three hundred and sixty days shall be
equal to one year’s service, and a day shall be equal to eight hours of[/LEFT]
labor or duty.

[SIZE=3]What do you guys make of this? Does it infer anywhere that 8 hours is the maximum in a 24 hour period allowed deck service?

Like I said, I don’t want to make an argument with anyone, this is really good practice for my appeal, anyway.

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[/LEFT]

I looked back, but dont see what type vessel you are crew on. What type? Does it have a COI? More info would help. What position have you been employed in? And what position are you applying for?

[QUOTE=deven;51469]I’m not going to argue legal definitions with you guys. Some want to take the MSM as law, yet it is not. I’m trying to find the exact report where the MSM states its reason for intent. I did find the law that it cites, however, which states:

[LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535]"(b) Every person may be rated an able seaman and qualified to
serve as such who is eighteen years of age or older; meets the
regulatory requirements with respect to sight, hearing, and physical
condition; meets the applicable professional knowledge examination
or educational requirements; and meets the following applicable
service requirements:[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]
[SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#373535][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535][LEFT]"(1) ‘Able seaman’ qualified for unlimited sewice on any vessel
and on any waters shall have at least three years’ service on deck[/LEFT]
on vessels operating on the oceans or the Great Lakes." …
[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][LEFT]… [/LEFT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1][COLOR=#373535]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#373535]"©
[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2][COLOR=#373535]‘Service on deck’ means service in the deck department in work[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]
[LEFT][SIZE=2][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=#373535]related to the work usually performed aboard vessels by able seamen
and may include service on decked fishing vessels and on public
vessels of the United States. Three hundred and sixty days shall be
equal to one year’s service, and a day shall be equal to eight hours of[/LEFT]
labor or duty.

[SIZE=3]What do you guys make of this? Does it infer anywhere that 8 hours is the maximum in a 24 hour period allowed deck service?

Like I said, I don’t want to make an argument with anyone, this is really good practice for my appeal, anyway.

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT]
[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][LEFT]
[/LEFT]
[/QUOTE]

No argument here, but I wish you had a good one so you can win your appeal.

[QUOTE=cappy208;51471]I looked back, but dont see what type vessel you are crew on. What type? Does it have a COI? More info would help. What position have you been employed in? And what position are you applying for?[/QUOTE]

The type of vessel doesn’t mean anything. He is trying to get 1.5 days credit as a QMED-OIler for a 3 A/E license. Oiler’s are not authorized under a two-watch system on anything…tugs, yellow submarines, OSV’s…nothing. That is the problem…somebody read the law after all these years. I don’t agree with it, should be the same as AB, but it’s there in black and white as I posted above.

"CFR 46 10.104 Definitions of terms used in this part.

“Day means, for the purpose of complying with the service requirements of this part, eight hours of watchstanding or day-working not to include overtime. On vessels where a 12 hour working day is authorized and practiced, such as on a six-on, six-off watch schedule, each day may be creditable as one and one half days of service.”

Nowhere does it say that eight hours of work, or fraction of, gives one day credit, or fraction of, except in the above reference. You are looking/wishing for some kind of fraction of a day credit. It’s not in there.

I’m on a DP3 MODU.

I don’t think people are quite understanding what I’m saying though as far as watch and sea service requirements. They are completely different definitions, under the law, as highlighted above in the AB quote, the definition of a day, the fact that US Law states watch and work are not the same, etc, etc.

I know most of you guys are on my side, but if you remove your preconception that a watch is equal to an 8 hour day, can you understand what I’m trying to say?

I cannot for the life of me find house report 96-1075 that the MSM quotes.

[QUOTE=DeckApe;51474]"CFR 46 10.104 Definitions of terms used in this part.

“Day means, for the purpose of complying with the service requirements of this part, eight hours of watchstanding or day-working not to include overtime. On vessels where a 12 hour working day is authorized and practiced, such as on a six-on, six-off watch schedule, each day may be creditable as one and one half days of service.”

Nowhere does it say that eight hours of work, or fraction of, gives one day credit, or fraction of, except in the above reference. You are looking/wishing for some kind of fraction of a day credit. It’s not in there.[/QUOTE]

Where did you find that quote? The ECFRs which are supposedly updated have a different one.

I’m not wishing, I’m taking literal interpretation, which is, I’m pretty sure, how the law is supposed to be read.

My personal favorite is for 3A/E

46 10.516
(a) The minimum service required to qualify an applicant for license as third assistant engineer of steam and/or motor vessels is:
(5) Graduation from the mechanical or electrical engineering course of a school of technology accredited by the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology, together with six months of service in the engine department of steam or motor vessels

As I read it, get a bachelor of science degree in electrical engineering from a non-maritime school, work 180 days as wiper and BOOM! Third Assistant. (Always wondered if I was reading that right…)

Code of Federal Regulations 46
Shipping
Parts 1 to 40
Revised as of October 1, 2007

I have the paperback book here with me.

Haha, yes you are. Civil Engineers are (or were once) allowed to do the same thing. I’ve heard horror stories of engineers taking this route. None that I’ve personally worked with, though.

I asked about the quote because ECFRs are supposedly up to date 2011 and have a different definition.

CFR 46: SHIPPING
Subpart A–GENERAL
§ 10.107 Definitions in subchapter B.
(Subpart B–GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL MERCHANT MARINER CREDENTIALS)
(e-CFR Data is current as of June 20, 2011)

Day means, for the purpose of complying with the service requirements of this subchapter, eight hours of watchstanding or day-working not to include overtime. On vessels where a 12-hour working day is authorized and practiced, each work day may be creditable as one and one-half days of service. On vessels of less than 100 gross register tons, a day is considered as eight hours unless the Coast Guard determines that the vessel’s operating schedule makes this criteria inappropriate, in no case will this period be less than four hours. When computing service required for MODU endorsements, a day is a minimum of four hours, and no additional credit is received for periods served over eight hours. (emphasis added)

As you said, “I’m on a DP3 MODU,” it must be the bold part that’s biting you in the ass. Black and white. Sorry man. :frowning:
It seems the exception for MODU is somewhat new as it wasn’t in my paperback 2007 edition. Your shipmates must have got time under the old requirements and now you have to qualify under the new requirements.

[QUOTE=DeckApe;51483]As you said, “I’m on a DP3 MODU,” it must be the bold part that’s biting you in the ass. Black and white. Sorry man. :frowning:
It seems the exception for MODU is somewhat new as it wasn’t in my paperback 2007 edition. Your shipmates must have got time under the old requirements and now you have to qualify under the new requirements.[/QUOTE]

Read it carefully, [B]MODU endorsements[/B]. There is another regulation that states that DP MODUs will be classified in the same manner as conventional vessels. Actually, if it were the case, guys going for MODU endorsements get sea service for time spent at home. I could get my Third Assistant MODU quite easily, except it would do me no good. I’m going for Third Assistant Unlimited.

I always thought this 12 hour day thing was bullshit. We all work 12 hours a day. But I know lots of guys who upgraded quick by working for tanker companies who gave them 12 hour letters, even though it was 8 hours of watch and 4 hours of forced overtime. Not exactly a 6 and 6 thing…

[QUOTE=anchorman;51473]The type of vessel doesn’t mean anything.[/QUOTE]

Actually it does. If this was some qualifying time, in addition to the time on unlimited HP vessels, If he was a watchstanding engineer on an Uninspected towing vessel, under 200 tons, on a domestic voyage, it WOULD count as a 12 hour day! But partial info makes it hard to decipher the story.

Now that it is apparent this is all MODU time, you are correct in this case.

Anchorman’s post was very clear, he can NOT get day and a half credit, because he can NOT legally work 12 hour watches (6 on, 6 off), regardless of what type of vessel he was on. Oilers cannot get 1.5 day sea time, by law. Even on a tug…

while were beating a dead horse, on an uninspected towing vessel, an individual does NOT need to be licensed at all in the ER. Thus some of the qualifying time can be accrued by someone holding a QMED and serving on a towing vessel… Although they don’t ‘serve’ in capacity of the QMED. their time spent aboard does count for ‘some’ of the qualifying time for an A/E license. Until the license desired, and total explanation this was not clear. How many times have you heard someone come up to you and claim they are: Chief, Captain, or skipper. The when they tell you the whole story you realize they are chief bottle washer, captain of a sixpack, or skipper (as in gilligans boss.) Until the whole story comes out it is hard to give accurate info.

[QUOTE=cappy208;51500] on an uninspected towing vessel, an individual does NOT need to be licensed at all in the ER.[/QUOTE]

Unless the rules have changed recently, licensed engineers are required on tugs over 200gt. Inland tugs require licensed engineers over 300gt.

[QUOTE=cappy208;51500]while were beating a dead horse, on an uninspected towing vessel, an individual does NOT need to be licensed at all in the ER. Thus some of the qualifying time can be accrued by someone holding a QMED and serving on a towing vessel… Although they don’t ‘serve’ in capacity of the QMED. their time spent aboard does count for ‘some’ of the qualifying time for an A/E license. Until the license desired, and total explanation this was not clear. How many times have you heard someone come up to you and claim they are: Chief, Captain, or skipper. The when they tell you the whole story you realize they are chief bottle washer, captain of a sixpack, or skipper (as in gilligans boss.) Until the whole story comes out it is hard to give accurate info.[/QUOTE]

Not beating a dead horse, rather educational for those choosing to read. Deven is way past previously qualified time, that has been given to the Coast Guard. He is trying to get the 720days of required QMED time for the 3rd A/E. He has 516 days as a QMED. Deven clearly stated the license he was going for in his first post. What you say is true, but within the context of this case, and how far along Deven is, his problem stems from not getting 1.5 days as a QMED. That cannot happen, regardless of vessel…like I said and provided why. Previously qualified time will not help, he has all of that, more than enough. It’s a simple math problem 720-516= 204 days required. I hate to say that the Coast Guard is correct and so is Deven’s assessment of needing 14 months to get the required time working an equal time schedule.
I cannot see Devin having a leg to stand on since someone decided to apply the law after all these years, but I would certainly try if I were him. I personally think he’s going about it the wrong way. The Coast Guard has failed in such a systemic way by not following “a means of determining and verifying the qualifications an applicant must possess to be eligible for certification to serve on merchant vessels” ref.Title 46 § 10.101, that it has become apparent and proven, that for the better part of two decades an expectation and culture has been developed, at the fault of the Coast Guard, that has allowed QMED-Oliers to get 1.5 days on certain vessels, to the point where the regulation ( I mean law actually) has been proven inadequate, outdated, and never followed. There is an obligation for this to be fixed, and not at the expense of an unsuspecting individual. Unfortunately, it would literally take an act of Congress since it’s explicitly stated as law and not administrative regulation.

[QUOTE=anchorman;51504]Not beating a dead horse, rather educational for those choosing to read. Deven is way past previously qualified time, that has been given to the Coast Guard. He is trying to get the 720days of required QMED time for the 3rd A/E. He has 516 days as a QMED. Deven clearly stated the license he was going for in his first post. What you say is true, but within the context of this case, and how far along Deven is, his problem stems from not getting 1.5 days as a QMED. That cannot happen, regardless of vessel…like I said and provided why. Previously qualified time will not help, he has all of that, more than enough. It’s a simple math problem 720-516= 204 days required. I hate to say that the Coast Guard is correct and so is Deven’s assessment of needing 14 months to get the required time working an equal time schedule.
I cannot see Devin having a leg to stand on since someone decided to apply the law after all these years, but I would certainly try if I were him. I personally think he’s going about it the wrong way. The Coast Guard has failed in such a systemic way by not following “a means of determining and verifying the qualifications an applicant must possess to be eligible for certification to serve on merchant vessels” ref.Title 46 § 10.101, that it has become apparent and proven, that for the better part of two decades an expectation and culture has been developed, at the fault of the Coast Guard, that has allowed QMED-Oliers to get 1.5 days on certain vessels, to the point where the regulation ( I mean law actually) has been proven inadequate, outdated, and never followed. There is an obligation for this to be fixed, and not at the expense of an unsuspecting individual. Unfortunately, it would literally take an act of Congress since it’s explicitly stated as law and not administrative regulation.[/QUOTE]

That is really the context of the argument I will make in my appeal. My point about the laws was to basically say that since it is based on an interpretation of the law, it wasn’t really unlawful in the first place. If this were so, the CG could fine every captain who gave out 12 hour discharges. They won’t do this, maybe because they are nice, but most likely because they couldn’t prove in a court of law that what these captains have been doing is unlawful.

But someone was right, as far as beating a dead horse. The Coast Guard uses definitions of day and year (360 days) as their own entity that doesn’t mean anything compared to the actual definitions of each. This is a huge part of the confusion. If I were to work 365 days in a year, would I not get credit for those extra 5 days that go over the coast guards definition of a year? Probably I would, but if I go over their definition of a day, I do not get credit. If I were an apprentice to the machinist trade, would those hours I worked count towards my sea time, even if I worked more than 8 hours in one day? In that case, or even if I worked 8 hour days every day at the machinist trade, I could become an engineer by working on diesel engines on shore faster than I can by actually being out at sea! That is inherently stupid. I have probably 3 or 4000 hours of diesel engine experience, but according the Coast Guard out of my 8400 hours, much of that time doesn’t count.

Regardless, my main argument would be that the Coast Guard’s actions put me in an unfair disadvantage on my vessel, and they have practiced selective application of the new policies until very recently. They are also retroactively changing the status of a pre existing relationship by taking my sea time away from previous, which is basically a direct slap in the face to my rights as a citizen of this country. I am told by most that the Coast Guard is taking a hard line policy on this issue, so my chances aren’t that great, but like I said, I’m willing to try just about anything. So any suggestions are very appreciated!