Don’t know much about engineering really… but LNG carrier I was on was diesel electric… Another of my old company’s LNG carriers was steam powered.
There is no rule covering this? How about: Underway, NOT making way!
What I keep hearing is: a fourth status is desired 1. Underway. 2. Anchored. 3. Aground. 4. Drifting by choice.
Limited in the ability to maneuver would be closer I think. As has been pointed out on a low speed diesel you can get the engine in 10 minutes or so in an emergency. .In the case of a big tanker drifting and being approached at 12 kts if you started before the vessel just over 2 miles away you might be able to move a ship length or so.
The key to safe drifting is to pick a spot away from traffic, I’ve drifted for days without seeing a single ship That combined with the fact that in an emergency you can get the engine can make drifting a safer choice then being anchored in some cases.
If ships are drifting in traffic and depending upon the NUC lights to keep safe, that would be another matter, I don’t know how common that is, I don’t recall ever seeing it.
K.C.
[QUOTE=cappy208;70096]There is no rule covering this? How about: Underway, NOT making way![/QUOTE]
Doesn’t underway not making way only apply to vessels NUC and doesn’t that just bring us all the way round in a big circle here?
Rules? We don’t need no stinking Rules!
[QUOTE=c.captain;70098]Doesn’t underway not making way only apply to vessels NUC and doesn’t that just bring us all the way round in a big circle here?
Rules? We don’t need no stinking Rules![/QUOTE]
A vessel not making way may still be obligated to stay clear unless it is a rule 2 “special circumstances”
Vessels not making way may be in special circumstances. First, a vessel should avoid stopping in a high-traffic area, and when a vessel decides to stop, it should make its intentions clear to other vessels in the area. As always, a proper lookout should be maintained.
Risk-of-collision situations are a bit tricky. If good conditions exist, and if the stopped vessel can put on maneuvering speed quickly, and if one assumes that its steady course is that indicated by the point of its bow, and if then, by Rule 15, it would be the give-way vessel, the Steering and Sailing Rules would apply and the stopped vessel would be obligated to keep out of the way of the other. But if the vessel is drifting, its course may not be obvious. If the stopped vessel is large, it may not be able to move out of the way of a fast oncoming vessel. Whatever the “if” of the situation, encounters with vessels not making way through the water deserve extra caution.
That brings up a good point though. What about lights/shapes for not making way? Because if you are underway, not making way, your bow does not indicate your direction of motion.
It is NOT the vessels relative direction but the TRUE direction. It us the vessels head that determines the rules.
[QUOTE=cappy208;70114]It is NOT the vessels relative direction but the TRUE direction. It us the vessels head that determines the rules.[/QUOTE]
When actually encountering a tanker not making way how much of this matters? In practical terms a vessel DIW is the easiest collision avoidance problems there is. As long as the stopped tanker stays stopped it’s a simple problem. The worse case scenario would be a situation where it moved unexpectedly, not if it stays stopped.
K.C.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;70125]When actually encountering a tanker not making way how much of this matters? K.C.[/QUOTE]
I erred in the previous post. The heading of the vessel determines the sectors of responsibility. the following determines how the rules apply to any vessel. If the vessel is 1. anchored. 2. aground. or 3. made fast the navigation rules don’t apply. If it meets none of these parameters it is pretty obvious the vessel MUST obey the rules.
I still don’t understand this constant referring to wanting to ‘elect’ to be in particular navigation condition.
[I] This reminds me of a past Mate explaining to me that when we were on a really rough 'cross gulf' tow during his watch he would put on the RAM lights since he didn't want to talk to or maneuver while he was on watch. [/I]
I was always very dubious of this logic. Having since had a ‘few’ years experience while licensed, I had my doubts confirmed. However this topic is not something that is elected. This is not something that one can ‘opt’ for, for convenience. This is not an option that is up to individual interpretation. It is stated in the rules of concern when ability to maneuver is hampered by ‘unusual circumstance.’ Why is this being batted around in the ‘courtroom’ of GCaptain?
It is pretty obvious to me that if my vessel had (for instance) lost the rudder or had the rudder jam and I could NOT steer then I would meet the ‘need’ to use NUC. But scheduling due to considerations of fuel usage or berth availability is NOT the same set of ‘special circumstances.’
[QUOTE=cappy208;70132]But scheduling due to considerations of fuel usage or berth availability is NOT the same set of ‘special circumstances.’[/QUOTE]
My point is that if a ship encounters a stopped tanker it doesn’t matter if the approach is ahead, astern or on the red side or green side. That stopped tanker is not going to move very far regardless. It’s a matter of physics. Any plan to avoid that tanker is going to have to take into account the limitations of the vessel involved.
K.C.
Let me ask a different question to see how it is interpreted here.
You are on a power driven vessel. You see a green light off your port bow (crossing your bow.) So you see a sailing vessel at night, and you are the ‘give way vessel’ however you can actually see that the sailboat has NO sails up, and is under power, who has the right of way?
Can a vessel that is showing ‘improper lights’ claim a special condition that actually does not exist? Is the other vessel obligated to ‘follow’ the indications of said ‘improper’ lights?
I believe this is what the ‘Philadelphia Rule’ is made up of. Partial violations of the law make the incident NOT defensible in court.
The original question was to ask if a change in the Rules was necessary to allow this behavior. Is it? Is this behavior legitimate to require its own category? Should there also be a category of rules to apply to vessels faster than 15 knots? Maybe a separate category for guys who have crew change? Then again, if you are running low on fuel you should have preference in meeting or overtaking situations. Just thinking out loud.
[QUOTE=cappy208;70143]Let me ask a different question to see how it is interpreted here.
You are on a power driven vessel. You see a green light off your port bow (crossing your bow.) So you see a sailing vessel at night, and you are the ‘give way vessel’ however you can actually see that the sailboat has NO sails up, and is under power, who has the right of way?
Can a vessel that is showing ‘improper lights’ claim a special condition that actually does not exist? Is the other vessel obligated to ‘follow’ the indications of said ‘improper’ lights?
I believe this is what the ‘Philadelphia Rule’ is made up of. Partial violations of the law make the incident NOT defensible in court.
The original question was to ask if a change in the Rules was necessary to allow this behavior. Is it? Is this behavior legitimate to require its own category? Should there also be a category of rules to apply to vessels faster than 15 knots? Maybe a separate category for guys who have crew change? Then again, if you are running low on fuel you should have preference in meeting or overtaking situations. Just thinking out loud.[/QUOTE]
Can we get a light for “In The Head”?
[QUOTE=SeaSick;70144]Can we get a light for “In The Head”?[/QUOTE]
That would be a long splash brown followed by one long toot on the whistle.
Finally a question with a definite answer!
[QUOTE=cappy208;70143]I believe this is what the ‘Philadelphia Rule’ is made up of. Partial violations of the law make the incident NOT defensible in court. .[/QUOTE]
I think you mean the Pennsylvania Rule. I have been following this and thinking it would be useful to point it out. It’s long standing case law from a Supreme Court case called “The Pennsylvania” In general it says that if a vessel is found to be in violation of a marine safety rule/law, the vessel in violation has to prove not only that the violation did not cause of the accident, but that it could not have contributed to the accident. It came out of a rules of the road case, but its application had exopanded to othwer marine safety laws, but there has been some recent move to restrict its application. But it is definitely valid in rules of the road cases.
There’s a good discussion of it here:
http://www.forwarderlaw.com/library/view.php?article_id=788
[QUOTE=cappy208;70145]That would be a long splash brown followed by one long toot on the whistle.
Finally a question with a definite answer![/QUOTE]
If the foghorn was blown first would that be considered a warning signal?
[QUOTE=jdcavo;70169]I think you mean the Pennsylvania Rule.
There’s a good discussion of it here:
http://www.forwarderlaw.com/library/view.php?article_id=788[/QUOTE]
Thanks Mr Cavo. Once again the shell answer man fills in the details!
Yes, My bad. I forgot the real name, Philly, Pennsy, It’s all from the hoagie state!
[QUOTE=cappy208;70143]Let me ask a different question to see how it is interpreted here.
You are on a power driven vessel. You see a green light off your port bow (crossing your bow.) So you see a sailing vessel at night, and you are the ‘give way vessel’ however you can actually see that the sailboat has NO sails up, and is under power, who has the right of way?
Can a vessel that is showing ‘improper lights’ claim a special condition that actually does not exist? Is the other vessel obligated to ‘follow’ the indications of said ‘improper’ lights?
The original question was to ask if a change in the Rules was necessary to allow this behavior. Is it? Is this behavior legitimate to require its own category? Should there also be a category of rules to apply to vessels faster than 15 knots? Maybe a separate category for guys who have crew change? Then again, if you are running low on fuel you should have preference in meeting or overtaking situations. Just thinking out loud.[/QUOTE]
As to the first, I think there is no disagreement that it is improper for a ship to show NUC lights when not in that status. The original question acknowledged that it was a technically improper signal.
As to the second, should there be a signal for a drifting ship that does not have it engine immediately available. No clear ans was given on this except to suggest it may be useful to have drifting as a status on AIS. I though it may be helpful to signal status to flip on the NUC lights if a closing vessel was too close to allow time to get the engine ready. I don’t see how it can hurt if you can’t in fact move.
The other point made was that going FWE was unsafe - my response was being at SBE is safer in all cases but FWE is used at anchor when the risk is considered low, the same logic holds when drifting.
The last point I was trying to make is when a vessel approaches a stopped tanker such that there is risk of collision it’s not going to make very much difference if the tanker maneuvers or not as it can not open the distance much regardless of what it does.
K.C.
On other point, there is an unofficial signal used - ships drifting at night turn on all the deck lights same as at anchor. If you encounter a ship stopped with all it’s deck light on at night and it is too deep to anchor it’s assumed that it is drifting.
Or a light for “unmanned bridge”?
[QUOTE=SeaSick;70144]Can we get a light for “In The Head”?[/QUOTE]
I’m not “shitting you” but I was on one DP semi that had a button on the DP console that buzzed in the bridge toilet lest the DPO at the desk was having an aneurism at the moment his watchpartner was dropping a log, he could push it in panic and make the poor sucker on the can come running out with his pants around his ankles in wide eyed terror! Of course, checking this alert was on the 6 hour DP handover.
Turd alert?..Check!
There is apparently a yachtie use of Not Under Command as well. I was conducting ROV ops (I was displaying RAM lights and had a bunch of lights on on the ROV deployment area of the main deck) up near Cape Canaveral one night and plotted a vessel on radar approaching at 16 knots around 8 miles away with a CPA of about 0.1 mile.
I take a look through binoculars and see P&S running lights, Fwd and Aft range lights and two red lights in a vertical line. Thinking 16 knots was kind of fast to not be under command I call on 16 and get no answer, and call some more on 16 and get no answer (this was pre-AIS) As the other vessel is closing on 3 miles and the CPA is wobbling between 0 and 0.1 so put the ROV guys on alert that I will likely have to maneuver and then I spotlight the other vessel’s bridge. About 30 seconds later some girl with a perfect BBC British accent comes over channel 16 with: “Oh hello, were you calling me?” I say “Yes, I am the vessel dead ahead of you, I have equipment in the water and am unable to maneuver, can you alter your course to starboard and give me a one half mile CPA?”
“What is a CPA?” Comes the pert reply.
“Are you actually Not Under Command as your two red lights indicate?” I ask.
" Yes, the Captain is sleeping." She says cheerily, “We always turn those lights on when he is asleep.”
“That’s not what it means” I reply. “Anyway, can you alter course?”
“No, I am not supposed to change anything, just watch out the windows” she replies testily.
“Can you get someone up there who CAN change course?” I ask
During this exchange I start putting in towards the beach (presenting my port beam to the yacht) while the ROV guys are reeling in tether.
“Well, I could get the Captain or Mate up I suppose, but they had a really long day, and I’d prefer not to” she replies in her ever more infuriating Proper English
"F&ck it, Never mind, You don’t have to do anything, I’ll just get out of your way, don’t do anything, alright?, just leave the autopilot just where it is OK?" I reply
"Well you don’t have to be a git about it." She says
Anyway as she comes tearing across my stern with my ROV skipping merrily alongside, I can see that this yacht is AT LEAST 230 ft long.
Just wanted to let you guys know, if you ever need a nap and are in an area frequented by a bunch of yachts (Monaco maybe?), just flip those two red lights on and you are good to go.