Sea Star's El Faro

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;177004]That definition fours the El Faro exactly. What’s your point? (Also, I think it’s technically considered a conro vessel, buy that doesn’t mean it isn’t a roro.)[/QUOTE]

For Christ’s sake, stop feeding this troll. Once you do, he will forge for attension elsewhere.

      • Updated - - -

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;177004]That definition fours the El Faro exactly. What’s your point? (Also, I think it’s technically considered a conro vessel, buy that doesn’t mean it isn’t a roro.)[/QUOTE]

For Christ’s sake, stop feeding this troll. Once you do, he will forge for attension elsewhere.

OMFG- Ro-Ro- Con-Ro, Lo-Lo, whatever… Please give the inane bantering a break. It’s officially now a wreck.

[QUOTE=tugsailor;177006]For Christ’s sake, stop feeding this troll. Once you do, he will forge for attension elsewhere.[/QUOTE]

YES…starve the BEAST to KILL him!

please everyone, nobody reply to any steaming pile Hernia drops here…then hopefully he will shrink to a size where we can drown him in a bathtub!

.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;177004]That definition fits the El Faro exactly. What’s your point? (Also, I think it’s technically considered a conro vessel, buy that doesn’t mean it isn’t a roro.)[/QUOTE]

No, the definition does not fit the El Faro. El Faro has no external ramps, only a [I]deck house[/I] on the main deck open at the sides for wheeled cargo and then a shelter deck (top of deckhouse) for containers. How access to the holds is arranged is not clear to me. Any ideas anout any internal ramps? And how is cargo wheeled on the ship. Ramps on the jetty?

[QUOTE=c.captain;177011]YES…starve the BEAST to KILL him!

please everyone, nobody reply to any steaming pile Hernia drops here…then hopefully he will shrink to a size where we can drown him in a bathtub!

.[/QUOTE]

This is not a very intelligent post.

Instead you should wonder about about S/S El Faro’s [B]Voyage data recorder[/B] and [B]EPIRB[/B].
[B]Voyage data recorder[/B], or VDR, is as we all know a data recording system designed for all vessels required to comply with the IMO’s International Convention SOLAS Requirements (IMO Res.A.861(20)) in order to collect data from various sensors on board the vessel. It then digitizes, compresses and stores this information in an externally mounted protective storage unit. The protective storage unit is a tamper-proof unit designed to withstand the extreme shock, impact, pressure and heat, which could be associated with a marine incident (fire, explosion, collision, sinking, heavy weather, etc.).
The protective storage unit is in a retrievable fixed unit or free float unit and normally combined with the[B] EPIRB[/B] (the Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacon) when the ship sinks in a marine accident. The last 24 hours of stored data in the protected unit can be recovered and replayed by the authorities or ship owners for incident investigation.

In this case no [B]VDR[/B] has been found and no [B]EPIRB[/B] was activated at the sinking. Maybe they were not fitted? That really made the vessel unseaworthy.

I think I hear a little squeak…a quiet little mouse noise…nope…nothing there just my imagination

[QUOTE=z-drive;177017]I think I hear a little squeak…a quiet little mouse noise…nope…nothing there just my imagination[/QUOTE]

We discuss Sea Star’s El Faro and you think you hear but are you sure? You think? You hear? You sure? Maybe you are seasick?

[QUOTE=Heiwa;176930]Sorry - she was not a roro ship. Roro ships have (stern) ramps to lower on the quays so that trailers can load and offload themselves via them. The superstructure is one big garage (no bulkheads) with internal ramps to a lower hold and an upper weather deck. No bulkheads.

But this ship had bulkheads and holds. No roro!

And the containers? Seems to have been carried only on the uppermost shelter deck - three tiers. No, she was not a containership either.

But she had holds. So what did she carry in those holds. And how? And did she have any hatchcovers?

Very strange ship. Steam ship! Making 20 knots. What was the fuel consumption then? 100 tons/day? Sounds expensive. Who paid for that?

But maybe she carried veheicles on the upper deck below the shelter deck/containers. Doesn’t make her a roro.

So what kind of ship was it? I really feel sorry for NTSB to cover up this shit.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you don’t have the intelligence to get your head around the fact that these SunShip RoRos were ever built. . . States Lines also built 4 steam roros of the Maine class from Bath Shipyard in the mid 70s. I sailed on two of them. . . MARAD operates them now.

[QUOTE=Heiwa;176961]From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roll-on/roll-off :

Roll-on/roll-off (RORO or ro-ro) ships are vessels designed to carry wheeled cargo, such as automobiles, trucks, semi-trailer trucks, trailers, and railroad cars, that are driven on and off the ship on their own wheels or using a platform vehicle, such as a self-propelled modular transporter. This is in contrast to lift-on/lift-off (LoLo) vessels, which use a crane to load and unload cargo.
RORO vessels have built-in ramps that allow the cargo to be efficiently rolled on and off the vessel when in port. While smaller ferries that operate across rivers and other short distances often have built-in ramps, the term RORO is generally reserved for large oceangoing vessels. The ramps and doors may be stern-only, or bow and stern for quick loading.[/QUOTE]

RORO Barge. . .

[QUOTE=cmakin;177023]Maybe you don’t have the intelligence to get your head around the fact that these SunShip RoRos were ever built. . . States Lines also built 4 steam roros of the Maine class from Bath Shipyard in the mid 70s. I sailed on two of them. . . MARAD operates them now.

[/QUOTE]

This El Faro is no roro. No ramps to the main deck. Or any deck. All wheeled cargo is on the main deck high above waterline in a deck house with open sides and no means of closing. And then a shelter deck/top of the deck house, where you put three tiers of containers. This ship is/was a joke. And no VDR or EPIRB. It is a scandal. And fuel consumption 100 tons/day.
And open, rotten lifeboats. Invitation to murder. I am not really suprised that the shipowner is still free. Dept. of Homeland Security and Coast Guards is just working normally.

[QUOTE=cmakin;177024]RORO Barge. . .

[/QUOTE]

Interesting - about three hundred trailers are driven on top of an unmanned barge with three open decks, which is then towed somewhere, where the 300 trailers can be driven off again. Please tell me more about it. Between what ports is this barge trading? And is she loaded/off loaded just over the stern and the hole there? How long does it take? And how do you get to the uppermost deck?

[QUOTE=Heiwa;177027]Interesting - about three hundred trailers are driven on top of an unmanned barge with three open decks, which is then towed somewhere, where the 300 trailers can be driven off again. Please tell me more about it. Between what ports is this barge trading? And is she loaded/off loaded just over the stern and the hole there? How long does it take? And how do you get to the uppermost deck?[/QUOTE]

You are the expert. . . these barges have been in service for decades. . . I ran as an engineer on tugs towing them over 30 years ago, and the trade had been going on for some time. . . .and still continues. . . at one point they were also largest barges in the world. . . as far as where they run? Google is your friend.

[QUOTE=cmakin;177028]You are the expert. . . [/QUOTE]

Please please please stop feeding that troll!

[QUOTE=Heiwa;177013]No, the definition does not fit the El Faro. El Faro has no external ramps, only a [I]deck house[/I] on the main deck open at the sides for wheeled cargo and then a shelter deck (top of deckhouse) for containers. How access to the holds is arranged is not clear to me. Any ideas anout any internal ramps? And how is cargo wheeled on the ship. Ramps on the jetty?[/QUOTE]

From what I recall, the Ponce ships used a combination of internal ramps and a large elevator for access to the lower holds of the ship. The “shelter deck” you refer to was an additional RORO deck on several of El Faro’s sister ships, using a ramp on the forward end for driving up onto. The ramps used for loading/unloading are left on the dock and are hoisted to the ship’s cargo openings using the ship’s equipment. The same setup is used on TOTE’s Orca class ships. There’s no requirement for the ship to carry its own ramp to load/unload and a lot of complexity is removed by leaving the ramps on the dock.

Not having permanently attached loading/unloading ramps did not seem to hinder the use of the Ponce class ships for delivery of military RORO cargo to the middle east during Gulf War I. It may have been used in the conflicts following, but I’m not sure on that.

Here’s a video that shows how the current Alaska ships are loaded/unloaded. There’s also a couple glimpses of old footage showing the Ponce class RORO’s loaded underway.
//youtu.be/BuXNXWxY7-M

[QUOTE=cmakin;177028]You are the expert. . . these barges have been in service for decades. . . I ran as an engineer on tugs towing them over 30 years ago, and the trade had been going on for some time. . . .and still continues. . . at one point they were also largest barges in the world. . . as far as where they run? Google is your friend.[/QUOTE]

Yes I know. Jones Act. Unmanned barges are cheaper than ships in the USA incl. Puerto Rico, etc, etc. But for roro cargo? Roro ships are popular in the Baltic - max 12 hrs at sea when the driver can sleep. Also in the Red Sea and Med. I know it well. But roro barges, for trailers! Slow! Better to put the cargo in a container. But SS El Faro (topic) was not a barge. What was it? How did they access the holds? And what was the fuel consumption?

Fare thee well! You will be missed dearly…:cool:

Maybe somebody is getting ready to offer their services to find the VDR?: http://www.oilpubs.com/oso/article.asp?v1=17743
Good opportunity to show off their new gadgets.

[QUOTE=ombugge;177076]Maybe somebody is getting ready to offer their services to find the VDR?: Clarksons Research
Good opportunity to show off their new gadgets.[/QUOTE]

I am afraid that the El Faro’s wreck is at a depth that is just beyond the specifications but maybe they have one available that can reach up to 5000 meters. Now we just have to wait for the big gesture. Thank you thank you very much…

Florida Senator Bill Nelson has echoed the calls of some family members of the El Faro crew, asking the head of the NTSB to conduct another search for the ship’s missing Voyage Data Recorder, or black box.
This according to the Jacksonville’s News Station WOKV. Maybe this will help to push the NTSB in the right direction and pushing they need…

[QUOTE=Dutchie;177287]This according to the Jacksonville’s News Station WOKV. Maybe this will help to push the NTSB in the right direction and pushing they need…[/QUOTE]

How would that be the ‘right’ direction? The Honorable Senator and family members see a value in the sVDR data that doesn’t seem likely to pay out for marine safety recommendations–the end goal of the investigation. Finding the wreck and making a careful examination, combined with all the relevant records and interviews the NTSB would conduct is going to provide all the necessary info to make what will likely be the only significant recommendation—don’t get cornered by a hurricane, have an escape route for weather avoidance, or maybe, just maybe, don’t go, especially if your machinery plant is less resilient than modern diesel propulsion plants and physical structure and intact stability less robust that ‘younger’ vessels.

The feasibility of the search and likely outcomes don’t seem worth the effort. Let’s assume the perfect data set comes out–for some reason the sVDR capsule is found intact, and all data available. The data will largely be position info, speed, radar pictures, it won’t necessarily have the alarm data from the machinery space–at least I haven’t seen anything that says the EL FARO sVDR was wired to have such and it isn’t required for a sVDR. And if it did have machinery alarms, what more would that info could tell us than we know (it stopped), and what would the recommendations coming out of such findings be? Steam prop is not new, there is no ‘new’ failure that this info would likley illuminate. If the mics on the bridge recorded audio was available, what more could be added to the info already available which speaks volumes? We may not know the Captain’s final words, or conversations, but we know all the relevant decisions up to that point. We know what was related to the office. They sailed, and kept sailing until they stopped, with a list, compromised watertight intergity in a storm and then, well, maybe it’s best that we don’t know what those last moments are like, and they seem unlikely to provide any radically different conclusions than what the record of facts already supports. To believe otherwise suggests there will be a way to identify a way to shave risk of heavy weather voyage planning to a level where one could reliably avoid the full impact of what occurred to the vessel if only at the last minutes the crew would have… well, anyway…

If there were survivors and it was necessary to make decisions about the conduct and performance of the officers and crew, in some kind of proceeding, perhaps it would be more important. Obviously the lawyers would like to have such info for civil suits. The lawyers should fund it themselves in that case.

But it does not seem likely that anything would come of the search even if undertaken. Clearly the location where it was affixed underwent a violent shock, and when one adds in the amount of time underwater to the likely compromise of the physical capsule, does anyone expect anything from finding it? I’d suggest that it would be a lot more reasonable to work with the manufacturer of the sVDR and with consideration of the likely physical shocks it encountered as well as the wiring having been severed. If they can test the hypothesis of the survivability, then maybe it would be worth the challenge and possibly lead to a new recommendation on VDR survivability requirements, not much else.

Lest anyone think I have joined the Mario V. bandwagon on not learning anything, I still believe in the value of the investigation and that valuable info will come out of it, and improvement to safety. It will probably be in a review of additional equipment to enhance the resilience of older steam propulsion plants in service by additional measures. Sadly, my cynicism believes this will simply be a set of heavy weather ‘procedures’ by the time the Coast Guard and owners are done with it… However, I don’t think anything much will be learned from the sVDR–even if it survived, and was in good order anyway. In any case, any further search should be based on likely utility more than sentiment.