Sea Star's El Faro

Maritime News
1090

[QUOTE=Phil O’Connell;171178]I could not possibly agree more with what c. Captain says above. I also think all Sat-phone calls should be recorded on the VDR to aid in this process.[/QUOTE]

I agree that in this and some other instances such a recorded conversation might help investigators. However, think how much more guarded both ends of conversations would be moving forward. Do any of us have the same conversations on the bridge or wings that we may have had a few years back before VDRs came into play? Do you want that conversation with your wife and kids recorded too?

1091

[QUOTE=c.captain;171208]they are a “private” not for profit corporation which operates with a license from the USCG to perform functions on the USCG’s behalf. Their being not for profit is however nefarious as they still earn revenue enough to cover their expenses to operate which includes to their executives which I well image they are paid very well hence why ex USCG Admirals often take the helm there after they retire. They earn this income from billing the owners/operators of the vessels they survey so defacto the shipowners are the clients of ABS and any business knows that the clients always want an “acceptable service” from those they pay. If they don’t like the service they receive then they say that they will start looking for another provider who will give them what they request. I believe the regulators (USCG) should give no choice is the class society by the vessel owner so to make the class society less susceptible to pressure by owners.

however, I am quite convinced that there have been secret agreements made between the concerned parties behind closed doors to get their stories to align and to ensure that all the damning evidence to vanish at every end. You can’t destroy messages at one end but leave them at the other. They have to be destroyed everywhere at the same time and if you think that the USCG would not do this because they are a public agency then you live on e small rocky planet somewhere who’s atmosphere consists of only helium gas.[/QUOTE]

Regarding ABS, you are basically correct, although the ACP program and to be most specific, “delegation of authority” to ABS to perform inspections / surveys and issue and / or endorse certificates for and on behalf of the government of the United States, are not under a “license” that can be purchased. But the effect of the “delegation” and ACP program is the same as a “license” without the long winded text. So you’ve got the idea right.

Companies absolutely have opportunity to bore IACS class societies new backsides, for cause, including ABS, BV, GL LR and DNV, all around the world. I’ve seen it done and done it myself. The reason they get bullocked is usually a. objectively wrong interpretation or application of the rules b. excess time to attend, make a decision or approve an engineering submittal, and yes, cost. One class society (not ABS) charges over eight dollars a MILE for mileage. So you bet they hear complaints. So in discussing commercial concerns, you are 100% correct. This indeed may prove to be a factor in what went on and it is in play for every class society out there. As one poster mentioned, things get “baked into the cake.” Not sayin its right or wrong. But malfeasance, if there is or was any, cannot be hidden this time around. The trail is too long. Unfortunately for some, the responsibility to maintain the ship lies with the OWNERS, not ABS. This concept has been proven rather many times in court. I think ABS gets sued about once a day…

As for the collusion part, scepticism is justified in many things in life. I’ve also heard it might be justified to engage one’s brain before one’s mouth, from time to time.

1092

[QUOTE=+A465B;171115]

So what first steps can we, the readers here, [U]actually[/U] make, even simple things, to change the course of safety management aboard our own ship and organizations? …
More money, more guvvermint’ and more time isn’t going to count.
[/QUOTE]

You’re going to hate this, but I think it is more “guvvermint.” I think we (you really, as professional mariners) need to ask your congressmen for help (Stop laughing). Listen, I know “regulation is bad” and you guys all “know what you are doing,” especially you Captain types. But without regulatory oversight, your safety would be completely dictated by the goodwill of your employers. (I noticed you stop laughing)

Without “the man” telling ship owner/operators to do certain things to keep you safe, they wouldn’t do most of those things to keep you safe. How do I know? Because they talk to their congressmen most every time a new “regulation” forces them to spend money on your safety - and usually oppose it.

We need to find a way to make financial pressure in the face off high risk, low frequency events illegal. Captains need an “out” in the face of pressure when a clear hazard exists. Companies should not be allowed to dismiss their culpability by laying it off on the mariner.

The regulations relating to ISM are clear, but I think that we may have to finally admit that the ACP program has its flaws (Objectivity cannot be bought). That has to do with a vessel’s condition, though. What I am talking about in the way of new oversight (of the gov variety) has to do specifically with weather routing.

(Help me out here - I’m not a mariner - I just spent my life trying to save mariners when stuff went bad, so this idea might be full of BS.)

IF - owner/operators were compelled (by federal law) to gain “approval” for a captain’s weather routing plans any time said plan will take a vessel within X miles of a named storm, wouldn’t that give mariners some relief from considering the companies leaning towards profit over safety?

Yes - “approval” needs to be defined, of course. I’m not thinking CG approval (God , no,) but rather a volunteer organization of licensed and experienced senior mariners, who literally vote to approve or not approve (agree or disagree) with a submitted sail plan.

Again, just in those rare cases where named storms come within X miles (I’m think 100) of a projected sail plan. (Yes - regulating the 123 rule I suppose)

If Captain Davidson had been able to tell Tote “This plan takes me within 100 miles of a storm path, I need to post it to [Insert name of Mariners Board here] for approval” (or you’ll face significant fines for not making sure I did)- It’s doubtful anyone (or any of you by the way) would have said yes to it.

As it is, owner/operators are allowed to say “It was the Captain’s decision.” And the unsaid truth is “the captain who we nag about every dollar spent of fuel, on delivery time, on schedules, on…” well, you know better than I what they nag you on.

Government can be a pain, to be certain, but often the laws enacted provide mariners the ability to say no to their employers. Being able to say “Sorry Boss, but I’ll lose my license and you’ll get fined if I make this particular trip without five captains - not on your payroll - saying yes to it.” would be good for you, right? Wrong?

I’m seriously asking.

When I wrote “We won’t earn anything” I meant it. We know what is wrong. At some point we should do something about it. This is one idea.

1093

I remember a story about an Owner approaching class to issue a certificate. After examining the barge, ABS told Owners well, arrange a docking, some surveys and if all is in order, we will issue the certificate.

The Owners said, “Screw that”, in effect, and found a more compliant organization to issue the certificate.

The newly certificated tank barge was loaded with deck cargo and sailed, imaginary fingers waving in salute.

The tug sank.

1094

SMOKING 16" NAVAL CANNON ALERT

ABS has taken the page for the EL FARO off their Record now…nothing can be read by public anymore

How can anyone not say that we are witnessing a hideous coverup here and burial of the evidence?

1095

It’s a human condition. Doesn’t mean anything about them personally. Could be anyone influenced like that. The brain works in mysterious ways. I see it all the time, people yearning to get home to the ones they love, or events they are obligated to. This is a fact of our industry. Just yesterday I talked with a Captain who remembers working as a mate in N. Atlantic swells, Captain wouldn’t slow down because he had to be home for Christmas. Safety measured rationalized away. Vessels often proceed in fog if there is a plane to catch.

As stated earlier, this may not be the case but should be considered and or eliminated in any objective analysis. Something was making him press the limits. Frankly I would hold him higher if it was to see his family than if it was company profits.

[QUOTE=juneau74;171202]Well - I am about ALL OUT of “words” - I can only suggest listening to the song “The Prayer” and reading the Lyrics………….

Even tho I hadn’t seen him in over 20 years, Michael was a Professional Friend of mine………that’s the way Friendships go…….

“Does anyone know where the Love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?”…………Gordon Lightfoot[/QUOTE]

1096

[QUOTE=c.captain;171217]SMOKING 16" NAVAL CANNON ALERT

ABS has taken the page for the EL FARO off their Record now…nothing can be read by public anymore

How can anyone not say that we are witnessing a hideous coverup here and burial of the evidence?[/QUOTE]

Indeed, by this one secretly contemplated nefarious act foisted upon the American citizenry, no, the World, it can no longer be proven that the ship was ever classed !!!

Poooof. Everything that ever existed in any file about the ship, since 1977, has vanished. Gone. Vaporized.

I suggest a Broadcast Alert !!! Call Fox News and CNN !! No ! The National Enquirer. Deserving people deserve to know. Immediately . Operators are standing by !

1097

[QUOTE=mvittone;171213]When I wrote “We won’t earn anything” I meant it. We know what is wrong. At some point we should do something about it. This is one idea.[/QUOTE]

what we are learning Mario is that the filthy corruption in the system put in place to protect the mariner is still rampant and that as much as all of us wanted to believe it no longer existed after the last horrible loss it still does.

We are learning that it is the MONEY which continues to drive this industry and that the parties entrusted with ensuring compliance are susceptible to continuing to be sucked over to the Dark Side. If I can point you to look at anything which happened here is how that system has been so horribly subverted yet again and how that subversion runs through the entire industry. Every ship operating company is a part of this, the Dark Side and the Empire is everywhere!

1098

I detect the stench of disgruntled former employee in these quotes.

1099

A forum member sent me this link to a song about the Marine Electric, fearful to post in case it might be considered disrespectful to the families. I think that man is a gentleman to be considerate, and the song is a gem.

It seems very touching and every professional seaman will recognize the real life sentiments immediately.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3Pm1hQZspg

1100

[QUOTE=Bayrunner;171221]I detect the stench of disgruntled former employee in these quotes.[/QUOTE]

of course and all without any weight…

water dripping into the cook’s stateroom is utterly meaningless…opinions on the master is pure opinion without substantiation.

we need to ignore all this nonsense at look at the real evidence we find as this tragedy unfolds

1101

[QUOTE=c.captain;171220]what we are learning Mario is that the filthy corruption in the system put in place to protect the mariner is still rampant and that as much as all of us wanted to believe it no longer existed after the last horrible loss it still does.

We are learning that it is the MONEY which continues to drive this industry and that the parties entrusted with ensuring compliance are susceptible to continuing to be sucked over to the Dark Side. If I can point you to look at anything which happened here is how that system has been so horribly subverted yet again and how that subversion runs through the entire industry. Every ship operating company is a part of this, the Dark Side and the Empire is everywhere![/QUOTE]

I gotta stop. Really. I don’t get it with you, it is so interesting. You write the most insightful and accurate stuff sometimes, it is really informative, and you answer a lot of questions genuinely.

But then there is side you’ve got going there that is jaw dropping incomprehensible. There ain’t no changing that, so I suppose it can be treated like radiation.

  1. Maximize distance
  2. Minimize exposure
  3. Always use shielding

But now I gotta ask in the interest of public safety.

Do you have access to any firearms?

1102

[QUOTE=+A465B;171212]As for the collusion part, scepticism is justified in many things in life. I’ve also heard it might be justified to engage one’s brain before one’s mouth, from time to time.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry but no, we are being asked to fit the pieces we are given to a puzzle and I am sad to say that for me they don’t fit and I feel there are pieces missing. The pieces missing happen to be the most important ones to complete the picture. Same say to wait and we will ultimately be given those pieces but I say no, we cannot just wait lest those who want to change that picture to a happy scene get their way. This is not a happy little puzzle of a pastoral scene but one of terror happening to a ship’s crew on the sea one fateful morning.

If there is any media here please look hard at the owners, the class society and the USCG. They hold those missing pieces and you can force them to be produced through your reporting.

1103

Another little piece of the puzzle.

AIS Positions from El Faro’s last voyage.

AIS Positions for the previous voyage.

1104

[QUOTE=+A465B;171224]But then there is side you’ve got going there that is jaw dropping incomprehensible. There ain’t no changing that, so I suppose it can be treated like radiation.[/QUOTE]

you have goaded me before successfully but I have learned to not fall into the trap you set for me. I will write my opinions about what I believe happened whether those prove correct or not however I believe every statement I make has merit whether you think so or not.

1105

[QUOTE=Steamer;171191]Were they closer to 1 foot in diameter or 2 inches?[/QUOTE]

I want to say both

1106

[QUOTE=c.captain;171226]
If there is any media here please look hard at the owners, the class society and the USCG. They hold those missing pieces and you can force them to be produced through your reporting.[/QUOTE]

Problem solved, now stop and take a breather. Go have a cocktail. Until you get some more pieces, stop trying to fit them together. You can’t complete a puzzle without the missing pieces. They’re not suddenly going to appear here at this moment.

1107

[QUOTE=c.captain;171228]you have goaded me before successfully but I have learned to not fall into the trap you set for me. I will write my opinions about what I believe happened whether those prove correct or not however I believe every statement I make has merit whether you think so or not.[/QUOTE]

I should definitely stop that. I will.

I wanted to think you were like the kid in middle school that would throw a cherry bomb in the bathroom, watch everyone come running out then point your finger at the nerd passing nearby and say, “He Did It !” and watch as he got pummeled.

But no. You’re right. You believe it.

Now, more importantly, what about the firearms?

1108

[QUOTE=z-drive;171230]Problem solved, now stop and take a breather. Go have a cocktail. Until you get some more pieces, stop trying to fit them together. You can’t complete a puzzle without the missing pieces. They’re not suddenly going to appear here at this moment.[/QUOTE]

but we have got to demand them (or more importantly the media does)…we cannot wait to get them in the future, ever mariner has right to them now because it is our lives put at risk here by forces which only wants “profits uber alles”

yes, it is by crusade against Joe Boss yet again. My entire career has been characterized by my loathing for the powers of the owners over the mariner. I believe this to be a righteous cause now and I will not be stayed in my pursuits that the truth be revealed and as soon as possible!

1109

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;171196]Jacksonville is one of the better ports for loading / lashing heavy RO/RO cargo. The mates have to stay on the ball when the pace is fast but my loads leaving Jax have always been tight.[/QUOTE]

We do take pride in our job here. We have a lashing header on the ship that makes sure everything is done properly . Chief mate checks and if any problems are there they get with that header and he takes care of it.