[QUOTE=CJ_RORO;171229]I want to say both[/QUOTE]
black steel or a shiny alloy? all straight or some curved into C or J shapes?
[QUOTE=mvittone;171213]
Yes - âapprovalâ needs to be defined, of course. Iâm not thinking CG approval (God , no,) but rather a volunteer organization of licensed and experienced senior mariners, who literally vote to approve or not approve (agree or disagree) with a submitted sail plan.[/QUOTE]
Oh boy ⌠have you ever dealt with a condo association? I shudder to think about the kind of people attracted to those positions having any real world, real life power over any type of activity. Those people make Congress look like a highly skilled professional organization.
[QUOTE=c.captain;171232]but we have got to demand them (or more importantly the media does)âŚwe cannot wait to get them in the future, ever mariner has right to them now because it is our lives put at risk here by forces which only wants âprofits uber allesâ
yes, it is by crusade against Joe Boss yet again. My entire career has been characterized by my loathing for the powers of the owners over the mariner. I believe this to be a righteous cause now and I will not be stayed in my pursuits that the truth be revealed and as soon as possible![/QUOTE]
This sentiment and energy is so commendable and important.
Not many disagree with you.
Iâm having a hard time making out why youâve picked those waypoints there, but hey, the destination isnât disagreeable.
Just look out for shoals on the way and remember it ainât allowed to throw trash overboard anymoreâŚ
Fair winds and following seas there Cap.
[QUOTE=lolder;171163]That was my point, theyâre on the edge at high altitude. Unless you know youâre going to top the weather or at most be in the wisps of the tops with no more than very light turbulence, you shouldnât go there. In ten years of command I disregarded air traffic control directions in flight twice and refused a takeoff clearance once. In the later case at Atlanta after viewing the thunderstorms on radar in the departure path I refused the clearance without a departure route change. The âtowerâ said, Taxi to the next turnoff and exit the runway, Delta, taxi into position". The Delta pilot said, " If he ainât going, I ainât !". THAT was professional courtesy !. We held on the runway for 10 minutes and they came back with a departure clearance that completely avoided the storms.[/QUOTE]
now THAT is the power of worker solidarityâŚif one says NO then all should say the same and then amazing how fast you see them backdown. With commerce being brought to a halt in the interests of safety then the powers of commerce MUST listen and accommodate.
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[QUOTE=+A465B;171236]This sentiment and energy is so commendable and important.
Not many disagree with you.
Iâm having a hard time making out why youâve picked those waypoints there, but hey, the destination isnât disagreeable.
Just look out for shoals on the way and remember it ainât allowed to throw trash overboard anymoreâŚ
Fair winds and following seas there Cap.[/QUOTE]
thank you with sincere gratitude however that graphic is not mine
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oops, see now you were being metaphorical
thanks again for the sentiment
[QUOTE=c.captain;171223]of course and all without any weightâŚ
water dripping into the cookâs stateroom is utterly meaninglessâŚopinions on the master is pure opinion without substantiation.
we need to ignore all this nonsense at look at the real evidence we find as this tragedy unfolds[/QUOTE]
Itâs not a choice between utterly meaningless and the gospel truth. Thatâs one thing I noticed after I started sailing master, a captain has to deal with a lot more ambiguity, inaccuracies, conflicting information and so forth. Itâs a matter of developing a little skepticism when itâs appropriate and using critical thinking skills while being mindful of our own biases.
If you are curious about how airline pilots achieved this, take a look here:
http://www.alpa.org/about-alpa/our-history
[QUOTE=c.captain;171237]now THAT is the power of worker solidarityâŚif one says NO then all should say the same and then amazing how fast you see them backdown. With commerce being brought to a halt in the interests of safety then the powers of commerce MUST listen and accommodate.
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thank you with sincere gratitude however that graphic is not mine
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oops, see now you were being metaphorical
thanks again for the sentiment[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=+A465B;171236]Just look out for shoals on the way and remember it ainât allowed to throw trash overboard anymoreâŚ[/QUOTE]
just so we BOTH agree about being prohibited to toss out any trash and agree trash is related to the personal. Objective analysis is not to be considered as such even if the smell of it is not necessarily agreeable to all.
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[QUOTE=rag_hauler;171239]If you are curious about how airline pilots achieved this, take a look here:[/QUOTE]
Oh I know who they are and I have called for such an association for mariners for years now. Might this tragedy be the spark that lights the powder under such an association? I PRAY IT IS!
Mariners will get power over their terms of employment only when they become a collective body with one very loud and clear voice
[QUOTE=c.captain;171217]SMOKING 16" NAVAL CANNON ALERT
ABS has taken the page for the EL FARO off their Record nowâŚnothing can be read by public anymore
How can anyone not say that we are witnessing a hideous coverup here and burial of the evidence?[/QUOTE]
I took these photos on USS IOWA in February 1985. I was the Material Officer for COMCRUDESGRU EIGHT and onboard for three days in the Vacapes Oparea to observe post-maintenance engineering tests and help develop new gunnery exercises for 16" guns. We fired 52 rounds of 16" including a full broadside.
Perhaps a âfull broadsideâ by professional mariners is what c.captain and Mario are referring to, if something is to be done about conditions at sea.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;171238]Itâs not a choice between utterly meaningless and the gospel truth. Thatâs one thing I noticed after I started sailing master, a captain has to deal with a lot more ambiguity, inaccuracies, conflicting information and so forth. Itâs a matter of developing a little skepticism when itâs appropriate and using critical thinking skills while being mindful of our own biases.[/QUOTE]
agreed that being the master can be utterly thankless and endlessly frustrating to serve so many interests. Someone always seems to be displeased with you no matter how hard you try. I do not miss it at all after becoming self employed even though the paycut was severe (but I survive all the same and have for close to two years now). The anxiety level being my own boss is really only related to cash flow and when I do consider going back to sea, it is not with thoughts of it being all lovely and beautiful sunsets. It is with a great deal of dread for stepping back into a firefight and facing that God awful weather in the North Pacific.
[QUOTE=+A465B;171222]A forum member sent me this link to a song about the Marine Electric, fearful to post in case it might be considered disrespectful to the families. I think that man is a gentleman to be considerate, and the song is a gem.
It seems very touching and every professional seaman will recognize the real life sentiments immediately.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3Pm1hQZspg[/QUOTE]
Another great one here:
Stan Rogers, who wrote this great song, died young in an in-air fire aboard Air Canada.
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For the engineers: Is there a mechanism related to lube oil that trips if the propellor speeds up to fast, for example if the prop comes out of the water?
[QUOTE=Nelson Delmar;171244]Another great one here[/QUOTE]
and this one by Gordon Lightfoot which most here likely do not know as it was not a hit which received airplay but which has spoken to my mariner soul since I first heard it as a young man just starting my career. It is a song which is quite fatalist in its message yet still inspiring at the same time
âbut it was not meant to beâŚâ
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sorry that the graphical presentation is not very easy to watch so best to scroll it off the screen and just listen to the lyrics
[QUOTE=Mat;171227]Another little piece of the puzzle.
AIS Positions from El Faroâs last voyage.
AIS Positions for the previous voyage.
[/QUOTE]
I wonder where the informaton that they intended to use Crooked Island Passage comes from?
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;171246]I wonder where the informaton that they intended to use Crooked Island Passage comes from?[/QUOTE]
if you look at the EL FAROâs AIS track up to its last report, the course after coming abeam of Rum Cay was on the same track to continue through Crooked Island Passage with only a small course change
[QUOTE=Nelson Delmar;171244]âŚ
For the engineers: Is there a mechanism related to lube oil that trips if the propellor speeds up to fast, for example if the prop comes out of the water?[/QUOTE]
Yes. In an indirect way. There is what is called a governor that if working properly will handle this. There is also an overspeed trip, but it shouldnât come into play if the governor is doing its job. It gets a bit complicated to explain, but the WAFI link almost seems to indicate that a loss of lube oil level or its pressure was an issue. If low lube in the sump caused a slug of air to get into the oil system, you should get a trip as well, if the suction and oil flow / pressure cannot be restored. A cascading series of shutdowns and failures can occur.
For a good example, although a diesel v. steam ship, see the NTSB Report on the BRIGHT FIELDS allision in New Orleans. http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/MAR9801.aspx
You will need to click on the PDF icon to download the Report.
For the anti-guvvermint types, I say tongue in cheek, [I]âIt is clearly evident that there was a cover up the investigation was done in a sloppy and unprofessional manner by a bunch of political appointees.â[/I] Okay, Read THAT report, and the 163 others on the website and let me know how bad they suck.
[QUOTE=c.captain;171208]they are a âprivateâ not for profit corporation which operates with a license from the USCG to perform functions on the USCGâs behalf. Their being not for profit is however nefarious as they still earn revenue enough to cover their expenses to operate which includes to their executives which I well image they are paid very well hence why ex USCG Admirals often take the helm there after they retire. They earn this income from billing the owners/operators of the vessels they survey so defacto the shipowners are the clients of ABS and any business knows that the clients always want an âacceptable serviceâ from those they pay. If they donât like the service they receive then they say that they will start looking for another provider who will give them what they request. I believe the regulators (USCG) should give no choice is the class society by the vessel owner so to make the class society less susceptible to pressure by owners.
however, I am quite convinced that there have been secret agreements made between the concerned parties behind closed doors to get their stories to align and to ensure that all the damning evidence to vanish at every end. You canât destroy messages at one end but leave them at the other. They have to be destroyed everywhere at the same time and if you think that the USCG would not do this because they are a public agency then you live on e small rocky planet somewhere whoâs atmosphere consists of only helium gas.
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here is a question I cannot answer with my own experience
does a vessel enrolled in ACP require the same permit to proceed by the USCG if the required equipment falls under ABSâs scope of responsibility such as propulsion machinery?
My experience with ACP is that the USCG does not give the right to inspect and accept lifesaving and firefighting equipment on an ACP vessel to the class society but transfers the inspection and approval of machinery, electrical, piping and hull structure issues purely to class.[/QUOTE]
I donât know the full answer to that question. When I was sailing as Master NO-ONE except a USCG COTP could issue a âPermit to Proceedâ - it was the ONLY Document that said the COTP accepted the Masterâs judgement that the vessel was Seaworthy to Proceed - it was a pretty big deal. As to ânowâ I donât know - BUT - I wouldnât be surprised to learn that it doesnât even exist anymore - or - has been transferred over to ABS responsibility under âauthority of the USCGâ Iâm wondering if the ACP in todayâs Maritime World even passes THAT âright to inspectâ over to the ABS??
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[QUOTE=c.captain;171210]that single line expresses every emotion I have been feeling this past week and I thank you for posting itâŚsomehow I have not turned to âThe Wreck of the EDMUND FITZGERALDâ during this time even though the song has always filled me with emotion. Last night I did read of the vesselâs foundering to learn more about the circumstances behind it and to try to find comparisons to EL FAROâs loss.
I believe that deep within myself I sense a man who has always had an unconscious fear of dying at seaâŚwhen other men die, I feel that I was there
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SMOKING GUM ALERT FOLKS!
I just returned to the ABS Record page for the EL FARO and the references to the vessel being enrolled in ACP are GONE!
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I really donât think what youâre talking about is âfearâ - it is ârespectâ for the Power of The Sea âŚâŚâŚ hang IN There - I know the Professional Emotion that is running thru here!!
[QUOTE=+A465B;171249]Yes. In an indirect way. There is what is called a governor that if working properly will handle this. There is also an overspeed trip, but it shouldnât come into play if the governor is doing its job. It gets a bit complicated to explain, but the WAFI link almost seems to indicate that a loss of lube oil level or its pressure was an issue. If low lube in the sump caused a slug of air to get into the oil system, you should get a trip as well, if the suction and oil flow / pressure cannot be restored. A cascading series of shutdowns and failures can occur.[/QUOTE]
I have spoken with Steamer on this issue of whether low lube at the turbine would render a ship not under command for a extended period or cause a shutdown of the main steam throttles. He as well as Fraqrat have indicated that the oil flow to the turbines and red gear is from a gravity tank well above in the fidley and sized to allow minutes of lube oil flow to remain until flow from the sumps to the head tank can be restored. There certainly should have been redundant pumps for that oil circulation to be restored if one pump failed. All of us believe it unlikely that a low lube oil pressure alarm could have resulted in a longterm loss of propulsion with a moderate list. Of course, with a massive list, that flow downhill might well have stopped but the massive fatal list came at the very end hence why the conversation with the office was able to happen.
These puzzle pieces therefore do not fitâŚ
](https://flic.kr/p/zAiTNU)image by kennebeccaptain, on Flickr[/IMG]
It does appear that they were headed for Crooked Island Passage, I donât where the information that it was their intention. However upon reaching Rum Cay, where a turn to about 180 (south) would be expected they seemed to have turned SE. There are no time stamps on either the AIS or system so itâs diffiuclt to get an idea of the siutaton. One possibility is that turn was forced due to problems, to ease the motion, the list or to put the hatch problem in more of a lee. May have been a forced maneuver for repairs? I wonder if they were at full speed or hove to?
[QUOTE=c.captain;171251]I have spoken with Steamer on this issue of whether low lube at the turbine would render a ship not under command for a extended period or cause a shutdown of the main steam throttles. He as well as Fraqrat have indicated that the oil flow to the turbines and red gear is from a gravity tank well above in the fidley and sized to allow minutes of lube oil flow to remain until flow from the sumps to the head tank can be restored. There certainly should have been redundant pumps for that oil circulation to be restored if one pump failed. All of us believe it unlikely that a low lube oil pressure alarm could have resulted in a longterm loss of propulsion with a moderate list. Of course, with a massive list, that flow downhill might well have stopped but the massive fatal list came at the very end hence why the conversation with the office was able to happen.
These puzzle pieces therefore do not fitâŚ[/QUOTE]
There is a very LARGE âSequence of Eventsâ (Error Chain) running thru this incident - and it is NOT just in the ship itself - the Professional frustration is that we donât have all the âLinksâ - and most of us know what goes on with Powers That Be when something like this happens. It happened with the Exxon Valdez, it happened with the Edmund Fitzgerald and it happens all over the WorldâŚâŚâŚâŚâŚ
I believe that cleared the paasage between Rum Cay and San Salvadore or the prevailing winds should have blown them ashore on the latter. There is a Reuters story at the gCaptain mainpage that mentions a last reported position at 0356EDT which does not actually place the ship geographically however I believe this is about the time of the propulsion casualty due to the speed drop reported because with wind and seas on the stern there is no good reason at all for the master to slow down then with the storm center less than 50miles away and headed for them. The reported location where EL FARO was lost fits with a ship drifting for several hours to the north of the Crooked Islands and into the eye of the vortex.
At 2:09 a.m. ET, Oct. 1, El Faro was only 50 miles from the eye of Joaquin. At that point the ship was still moving at nearly 17 knots, according to the ship tracking data.
Facing fierce winds and high seas, the ship had made little progress by 3:56 a.m. ET. In its last logged location, the ship was less than 50 miles from the eye and had slowed down to 10.7 knots.
[QUOTE=juneau74;171250]I really donât think what youâre talking about is âfearâ - it is ârespectâ for the Power of The Sea âŚâŚâŚ hang IN There - I know the Professional Emotion that is running thru here!![/QUOTE]
no event in my career (not DWH nor EXXON VALDEZ) has rocked me as this one. I have seen several fishing vessels lost in Alaskan waters with a great number of dead. The AMERICUS AND ALTAIR being lost on the same night, as well as the ARCTIC ROSE and ALEUTIAN ENTERPRISE specifically but these terrible losses were somehow less horrible because we expect uninspected fishing vessels and their crews to be more likely to be lost due to the nature of their particular ugly beast. I am certainly glad that the trend is towards a much better record for them.