[QUOTE=john;171038]
Anyway… I could talk for days about the failure of modern media and the pitfalls of social media and internet dialogue but let’s get back to the el faro. (for those who are interested in learning more I highly suggest the book Trust Me I’m Lying)[/QUOTE]
Give this one a whirl (he was ahead of his time)http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/181-1166085-0298433?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=amuzing+ourselves+to+death
[QUOTE=tengineer1;171021]The facts of the sinking of the El Faro are summed up in Mario Vittone’s article posted on gCaptain. All the arguments about why they went that route, the condition of the vessel etc. are moot if the company had an SMS plan with IMO. I would suggest everyone pause from forum posts and read what Mr Vittone has to say. After reading that it would be helpful if a discussion was had as to what difference IMO and their required SMS plans really make? Apparently ship owners do not fear running afoul of the IMO. The IMO cannot DO anything but certify members are in compliance. Then when life is lost due to non-compliance what can IMO do? What have they done? little more than a paper regulation.[/QUOTE]
Once your flag sate ratifies the IMO reg its law over that vessel and maybe in a country you might happen to be in.
Most port state detentions are because you broke your own rules.
[QUOTE=tengineer1;171043]The DPA is a figurehead.[/QUOTE]
As a DPA in a former life, I will agree with that. It is a figurehead position required by regulation but if the management company has no interest in actually achieving what the regulations intend, the entire process is a not very comic opera.
[QUOTE=lolder;171031]I’ve just read Vittone’s article. I’m a newbie here since the tragedy. I’m 78 years old, I’m a retired Airline Captain ( 1989 ) and I’ve been on coastal and inland waters my whole life, the last 36 years in Florida and Bahamas near-coastal waters in my 41 ft. sailboat. I have a 100 ton masters rating but all i ever did was captain a 40 passenger pontoon boat at a state park. I have never been in a storm at sea other than a thunderstorm. I have seen a lot of the videos.
That being said, I am a Captain and I would like to address that responsibility. I’ve read all the posts about pressures of companies, etc. In the airlines, the Captain was represented by the union so it might have been easier for us to perform our duties. Transportation companies usually have tens or hundreds of times more employees than Captains. Almost to a man their soul thrust is to launch the trip. It’s like a giant funnel with the captain at the bottom waiting to be squirted out on the voyage. There is one person with the statutory authority to overide the launch ( two in airlines including the dispatcher ) and that is the Captain.
Captains don’t get paid good money to sail or fly on sunny days and calm seas. They get paid to do their job on dark and stormy nights. Trips are hardly ever cancelled and there’s the problem. Apparently you have Bridge resource management as the airlines have cockpit resource management. When it was instituted decades ago, a United Airlines friend called it “mutiny school” and that’s what it was. Too many Captains were wrecking planes with little protest from their subordinates. Things have improved but the problem is still with us.
Vessels need strong Captains. It has to be that way. You don’t get to be a Captain unless you’ve been around a long time. Most of your subordinates are younger than you even though they may have equal ratings. Younger people usually have less fear sooooo— if the people under you are scared of what’s happening, maybe you better re-evaluate what you doing. Junior officers, give your opinion even if it isn’t solicited. That’s hard but the alternative can be worse.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for posting this and I agree with the thrust of what you’re saying here. It a goood point that there are many people, and not just at the company, who’s job it is to see that the ship sails and only one person to flip the breaker and stop the show. How this works in practice of course is a whole other story. It’s almost like no one really wants to know how it works in practice.
I don’t know the situation at TOTE of course or on the EL Faro but the point I want to make is that in many cases ships no longer have captains. Often in the past a large ship would have two third mates and chief mate was a day-worker. We think that a third mate postion has been lost but in fact the main thing he was doing, standing a watch, is now done by the Chief Mate. As a result the captain is now a glorified chief mate with the responsiblities of a master. It was the position of master that was lost, not the third mate.
People say the captain should do this or that based on what captains were like back in the day. Again I don’t know the situation on the El Faro but I get the impression people imagine the captain in the wheel house studing the charts and pondering his decison like he’s Admiral Nimitz with a staff waiting to bring him everything from the next chart he needs to his cup of tea. It might be more reasonable to imagine the captain on the phone with the fucktards at the terminal gate trying to get the five Polish riders through the gate, held up because they don’t have TWIC cards. Or some such.
All ambiguity is resolved at the tip of the spear, in the case the ship, in particular the chief and captain. If anyone, the agent or the port engineer for example, doesn’t have time to do tasks, or things slip through the cracks, no worries, the ship will catch it.
We live in America. A government by the people, for the people. I’ve read a lot about the investigation taking too long, all of the information not coming out soon enough, etc. To this I say do what any good American does: call your Congressman. If they don’t listen call them again. If they still don’t call somebody else’s Congressman. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. As hard as it is to believe sometimes, a lot in Congress want to help and do the right thing. You just don’t hear about it because it isn’t a good story. I’m not saying this will get the facts of this case out sooner, or the facts of the next case out sooner, but it could eventually lead to a change. It could be a long, drawn out effort, but with the time and energy I’ve seen spent on this forum I know some of you want things to change and have that fire in you to fight until you get the changes you want.
On the lifeboat issue - I just meant to imply that the discussions about open vs. closed lifeboats are irrelevant to this particular mishap. Freefall are better than open - I agree. But bringing up the lifeboats as a serious part of this mishap is a little like arguing for better seat belts as an answer to drunk driving mishaps. What you want to focus on first is stopping the crash.
[QUOTE=+A465B;170992]Just for sake of good order and understanding, are you stating you have personally witnessed cargo shifting and breaking away, and snap rolls during your service onboard? It is not a trick question, and I do not doubt it, but am rather seeking that it be stated clearly.[/QUOTE]
That is exactly what I am saying. And anyone else who has been aboard these vessels will tell you the same. You can leave a port and everything seems secure, but once the vessel starts rolling heavily, these things are inevitable.
I think the interview was on CNN.
[QUOTE=Boston99;171057]That is exactly what I am saying. And anyone else who has been aboard these vessels will tell you the same. You can leave a port and everything seems secure, but once the vessel starts rolling heavily, these things are inevitable.[/QUOTE]
In other words the longshoremen are rushed and don’t do all that great of a job?
[QUOTE=Kraken;171023]I read it, good article but it was one paragraph that struck me as odd.
It’s not the point or intend of a lifeboat to keep a ship from sinking. But when the Master decides to abandon ship, I for one would expect the lifeboat to do its job of getting the crew away safely from the vessel. And a freefall lifeboat can do it lot quicker and more safe then a open lifeboat with a gravity davit.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Open boats with Gravity Davits had no chance in those conditions. Encapsulated free fall? Can’t say for certain, but you would have to believe there would be a much better chance for survival WITH them…
[QUOTE=Boston99;171057]That is exactly what I am saying. And anyone else who has been aboard these vessels will tell you the same. You can leave a port and everything seems secure, but once the vessel starts rolling heavily, these things are inevitable.[/QUOTE]
The NTSB wants to hear from fact witnesses like you. They have given out the contact details.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;171061]In other words the longshoremen are rushed and don’t do all that great of a job?[/QUOTE]
These ships are on a schedule… Once the last container or rolling stock is loaded, longshore are off, gangway aboard, last line… In a perfect world the cargo is 100% secured, but it’s not… After tugs away, deck gang will go about vessel securing any loose chains or straps they can see. They will be doing this the next morning, and every day at sea if needed.
Noble phrase but I don’t see it much these days.
Does anyone have pictures of the El Faro or her sister at the dock showing the ramp for loading the rolling stock? Also, it would be interesting to see some more pictures of the lower decks.
[QUOTE=+A465B;171064]The NTSB wants to hear from fact witnesses like you. They have given out the contact details.[/QUOTE]
I’m sure after this tragedy, these issues and many will be brought up. This is a tough job. Vessels transit inbound under pilot, mates are on 6 n’ 6 watches. Vessel docks, Chief Mates are usually up for most of cargo operations, mates continue 6 n 6 watches… It won’t be documented, but you know they are… Vessel departs, securing cargo continues. More than likely it was the same for the engineers. If they had ER repairs going on in port, every swinging dick is there. When they eliminated the dayworking CM and made him a watch standing mate, what were they thinking?? Cutting of crews. Every bad decision is about saving $$…
Rule 1. Never underestimate the ferocity of a hurricane,
Rule 2. Never overestimate your capacity and the ones of your crew and vessel,
Rule 3. The time for taking all reasonable measures for the ship’s safety is while still able to do so.
The ramp stays on the dock, its not a system thats its part of the ship.
Each car gets lashed on each corner, and each container with trailer gets lashed and pinned fwd.
The required lashing for containers on deck is a lot less compared to Horizon on the same run. But to be honest I dont think with that made a big difference with that weather.
[QUOTE=0rion;171070]The ramp stays on the dock, its not a system thats its part of the ship.
Each car gets lashed on each corner, and each container with trailer gets lashed and pinned fwd.
The required lashing for containers on deck is a lot less compared to Horizon on the same run. But to be honest I dont think with that made a big difference with that weather.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, What I am interested in seeing is Where the Ramp meets the ship and on what deck everything comes onboard.
Does the ramp meet the Weather Deck and then head down ramps or is there a Hatch on the side for the Rolling Stock to enter the ship?
I would like to comment on the statements about the life rafts and the vessel being “old”.
I am currently at one of the Maritime Academies. One of my classmates just lost his brother on El Faro and I saw him today for the first time since this tragedy. There are 4 other Alumni that we have lost in addition to his brother, two my younger brother knew when he was here before me.
The Academy is of course, making a big deal about this as they should and we have a ceremony at 12:45 yet I doubt they will follow through with doing any safety improvements to their own vessel to make sure something like this does not happen here.
My point in this background information is that I am very connected to what is going on, the tension on campus and seeing the faces of some that have been forever changed by this in the worst way.
In December of this year, we will embark on a winter “cruise” through the north Atlantic in our training vessel. She is 30 years old, there are 4 open life boats and numerous life rafts.
When I was on the vessel two summers ago, we lost power numerous times, always in calm water.
When I was in Alaska this summer Cadet shipping on a fishing vessel that was 10 years older than our training ship, (the same age as El Faro) it was in much much better shape than our training vessel. In fact one of my classmates was on El Faro this summer cadet shipping, knew most of the crew that was on board and he has said she was in much better shape than our vessel.
The point is, this winter there will be close to 200 individuals on this vessel and this summer, 300 and I can promise everyone that even with this tragedy, the school will not be making any new safety improvements, new life boats or installing more reliable equipment that has not been run hard, put away wet, and used and abused by students learning.
This is a hard time for all of us, sleep is almost non existent with the constant reminders of our losses and questions running through our brains as we lie awake in bed.
Our life boats are minimal at best, but pass USCG inspection. The school would put more students on board the vessel if the could ( = more $ for them) however the USGC will not allow this unless the vessel is heavily modified.
Hopefully there will be change but when the future mariners are brought up learning that the bare minimum is what is acceptable and then enter a corporate world where the bottom dollar, pressure to sail and just getting the job done constantly reinforces the experience at the academy that even if its junk, its good enough to sail. Don’t ask questions, and just do your job MuG.
My thoughts and prayers are with the family memebers of this tradgety and are constantly in my mind.
[QUOTE=KPChief;171049]Give this one a whirl (he was ahead of his time)http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/181-1166085-0298433?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=amuzing+ourselves+to+death[/QUOTE]
I have one word that describes all of Postman’s books… Brilliant! And those here with children I’d say stop everything and read “Disappearance of Childhood”!
But ahead of his time? I hate to say it but I believe the problems are more systemic. Try this then tell me if you agree: http://www.amazon.com/Brass-Check-American-believed-newspapers-ebook/dp/B00IHKLIUQ/