Sea Star's El Faro

[QUOTE=+A465B;171014]Skipper, Thank you for your insight. I won’t disagree with your conclusions.

I hate to bring this up, but I’m thinking if can we check the NTSB website about who is the investigation leader and who is just a spokesperson in the initial phase.

And maybe we can listen to the 7pm NTSB press conference tonight on that website, about the (1) release of information by the parties involved, (2) request for public / witness input and (3) finding and mapping out the “ship”.

I think we might even actually recognize some of the press questions, directly as discussed here in the gCaptain forum…

No disrespect at all, just sayin’ Skipper.[/QUOTE]

I agree with what you’re saying on the NTSB Investigation as to the difference between their Spokesperson and their Investigators. In the end, Vittone’s article is the one that addresses both Reality and Heartbreak. The age of the ship - the Safety appliances aboard - the Company’s SMS Manual and all the various Safety Rules and Regs in place just will not make up for the fact that the ship (a ship with LOW GM) was in the WRONG Place at the WRONG Time with the WRONG Hurricane…

[QUOTE=Boston99;171068]I’m sure after this tragedy, these issues and many will be brought up. This is a tough job. Vessels transit inbound under pilot, mates are on 6 n’ 6 watches. Vessel docks, Chief Mates are usually up for most of cargo operations, mates continue 6 n 6 watches… It won’t be documented, but you know they are… Vessel departs, securing cargo continues. More than likely it was the same for the engineers. If they had ER repairs going on in port, every swinging dick is there. When they eliminated the dayworking CM and made him a watch standing mate, what were they thinking?? Cutting of crews. Every bad decision is about saving $$…[/QUOTE]

Are you sure about that deck watch schedule? I may be mistaken, but 8 x 4 would be my guess. . . . of course this IS the Internet. . . . Bon Jour!

[QUOTE=Tugs;171071]Thanks, What I am interested in seeing is Where the Ramp meets the ship and on what deck everything comes onboard.

Does the ramp meet the Weather Deck and then head down ramps or is there a Hatch on the side for the Rolling Stock to enter the ship?[/QUOTE]

image credit: Allen Baker, MarineTraffic.com (original image: link), different image possibly showing the ramp link, another full size shot from shipspotting.com I enhanced (link)

CNN’s latest El Faro timeline:


it’s an unofficial schedule…4x8 with 2 hours OT on each end more or less. Kennebec captain had alluded to it before.

[QUOTE=mvittone;171056]On the lifeboat issue - I just meant to imply that the discussions about open vs. closed lifeboats are irrelevant to this particular mishap. Freefall are better than open - I agree. But bringing up the lifeboats as a serious part of this mishap is a little like arguing for better seat belts as an answer to drunk driving mishaps. What you want to focus on first is stopping the crash.[/QUOTE]

I just want a discussion around something we know as a fact. The safety equipment was ancient. It’s like drunk driving in a car with only a 2-point seat belt when a 3-point seat belt have been around for 30 years, why make a bad situation worse?

If it’s going off topic just let me know and I will stay clear of the discussion.

After reading Mario’s editorial today I felt like it was asking us to give up on meaningful industry change. But somehow I don’t think that was the real protest he was making. Balancing safety, commercial and operational success is a real tall order around the maritime industry, and we all know it. A centuries long trail of disasters and failed shipping companies tells the tale. THAT will not change. But maybe I’ve got it wrong.

I want to learn more about “why” the EL FARO and other casualties have occurred. Resigning ourselves to the equivalent of, [I] “Yeah, like Dudes, they got waaay too close to that gnarly storm when they coulda run the other way or stayed home. That thing was ancient, he was a dope and The Man screwed 'em. Everybody knows THAT” [/I]… teaches exactly squat. What a waste. Don’t go there.

We’ve been reminded there is no awesome solution for external risks, market conditions, greed or the frailties of the human condition. But like, Dudes, there’s no getting around the fact that they rule our lives, so we just have to manage them better. Maybe that was the idea?

The young people that I work with, afloat and ashore, are wonderful Even the nasty old coots aren’t too bad. They all deserve to know that “Why” an accident happened is wicked important. Even those little things that “contributed” along the way. At least then there is a chance they might be able to prevent an accident in their own lives.

Don’t turn your nose up at those “investigators” and what will play out in court. Because I think it is our only chance to learn this time around.

In this most imperfect of Worlds.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;]You seem to be assuming that the El Faro arrived at it’s postion near the eye on it’s own power however that may not be true.

I think a more likely explanation for forum member not speaking up to address your posts is that you are engaging with this subject in a very superficial way.[/QUOTE]

Hmm, you seemed to have read my post in a[I] very superficial way.[/I] The only positions I clearly referenced were those of Joaquin and El Yunque. As for my own[I] very superficial way[/I], perhaps you could elaborate. I consider myself to be dead serious about all this. If by chance you’re referring to my use of simile, well, it’s merely a literary method to step back from a subject and look at it through another prism. You’re welcome to not like it, but it was by no means trying to be cute, smarmy or anything else.

In fact I’ve only been trying dig out simple answers to general questions of a knowable variety that precisely avoids wanton speculation about the unknowable of the accident. Unfortunately, each time I ask “What would YOU do?” A465b steps up to the plate with “Well we don’t know what HE did.” I mean WTF?

People around here are crying out for a study to determine the true facts of the incident in order to make eventual changes to the industry. Changes to what? It may turn out that the report points a finger at poorly secured cargo, a rusty vessel and/or a defective boiler. Fine. But so may every day navigational practices be implicated. Which is what I’m looking at. There must exist rules. And to improve on those rules you need to know what they are in the first place. And I’m not hearing what they are. Except perhaps the 1-2-3. And on this point at least, MariaW did manage to cut through the smoke screen and eke out an answer of sorts:

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;171005]The point is all the factors involved in passage planning near hurricanes is complicated. The 1-2-3 Rule is simple. Is it followed? It depends, It’s a tool. I’ve passed smaller vessels that were hove to. Have had big container ship blow by me when I’m slowed down. I see guys cutting it close. In the open ocean I give hurricanes a wide berth. Sometime running coastwise…I’m careful but I’ve gotten delayed in port and had to cut it closer then I wanted to.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. It’s a good start. And I will read up on those links you posted.[I] Is it followed?[/I] On the face of it you seem to be saying there’s more winging it involved than there is standard operating procedure. [I]It depends[/I]. On what? In order for the average joes of us on the outside to get a better sense of the assessment of risk in these hurricane matters (and specifically in this case) I think it’s perfectly legitimate to ask you all, again, how you would have acted under the same givens during those first 12-18 hours after pulling out of Jacksonville. Same boat (or boat of your choice), same company (or company of your choice), same weather reports. And you can even leave the Poles at home. Would you have deviated? When and where? Feel free to take Topsail’s three rules into account #929. And the answers again DON’T depend on what Capt Anderson did or did not do. Now this may be a sensitive topic and with colleagues or even employers perhaps looking on you’re perhaps hesitant. It already appears that way. Fine, then just say so or send me a PM.

Not to belabor the [I]s-word,[/I] but there’s another entirely different angle of speculation that I’d like to hear feedback about. What if that boiler hadn’t shut down on El Faro and the ship had made it to San Juan on the skin of its teeth. Do you think the event would have filtered back to gcaptain? If so, would the community have felt relief, respect, admiration, criticism, outrage or simply… mum’s the word. In other words on the basis of what we now know would success or failure have modified your position as regards the viability of that voyage? Again, your PM’s are welcome.

eidas

[QUOTE=eidassan;171087]Hmm, you seemed to have read my post in a[I] very superficial way.[/I] The only positions I clearly referenced were those of Joaquin and El Yunque. As for my own[I] very superficial way[/I], perhaps you could elaborate. I consider myself to be dead serious about all this. If by chance you’re referring to my use of simile, well, it’s merely a literary method to step back from a subject and look at it through another prism. You’re welcome to not like it, but it was by no means trying to be cute, smarmy or anything else.

In fact I’ve only been trying dig out simple answers to general questions of a knowable variety that precisely avoids wanton speculation about the unknowable of the accident. Unfortunately, each time I ask “What would YOU do?” A465b steps up to the plate with “Well we don’t know what HE did.” I mean WTF?

People around here are crying out for a study to determine the true facts of the incident in order to make eventual changes to the industry. Changes to what? It may turn out that the report points a finger at poorly secured cargo, a rusty vessel and/or a defective boiler. Fine. But so may every day navigational practices be implicated. Which is what I’m looking at. There must exist rules. And to improve on those rules you need to know what they are in the first place. And I’m not hearing what they are. Except perhaps the 1-2-3. And on this point at least, MariaW did manage to cut through the smoke screen and eke out an answer of sorts:

Thank you. It’s a good start. And I will read up on those links you posted.[I] Is it followed?[/I] On the face of it you seem to be saying there’s more winging it involved than there is standard operating procedure. [I]It depends[/I]. On what? In order for the average joes of us on the outside to get a better sense of the assessment of risk in these hurricane matters (and specifically in this case) I think it’s perfectly legitimate to ask you all, again, how you would have acted under the same givens during those first 12-18 hours after pulling out of Jacksonville. Same boat (or boat of your choice), same company (or company of your choice), same weather reports. And you can even leave the Poles at home. Would you have deviated? When and where? Feel free to take Topsail’s three rules into account #929. And the answers again DON’T depend on what Capt Anderson did or did not do. Now this may be a sensitive topic and with colleagues or even employers perhaps looking on you’re perhaps hesitant. It already appears that way. Fine, then just say so or send me a PM.

Not to belabor the [I]s-word,[/I] but there’s another entirely different angle of speculation that I’d like to hear feedback about. What if that boiler hadn’t shut down on El Faro and the ship had made it to San Juan on the skin of its teeth. Do you think the event would have filtered back to gcaptain? If so, would the community have felt relief, respect, admiration, criticism, outrage or simply… mum’s the word. In other words on the basis of what we now know would success or failure have modified your position as regards the viability of that voyage? Again, your PM’s are welcome.

eidas[/QUOTE]

The simple answer to the question about the 1-2-3 rule is that it is all relative to the circumstances, which can be extremely diverse, therefor no silver bullet answer.

I think it is safe to say that most mariners would have chosen to take Old Bahama Channel, but there is the issue of hindsight and also a reluctance to chime in when circumstances are unknown. Nevertheless it seems like there must have been some unknown rationalizing happening during this event, (but still speculation at this point.)

[QUOTE=eidassan;171087]What if that boiler hadn’t shut down on El Faro and the ship had made it to San Juan on the skin of its teeth.
eidas[/QUOTE]

Who said the boiler shut down?
Who said the other boiler was already down?
Why does everyone here think steam plants are so antiquated and unreliable?
Why do these people keep insisting that a 15 degree list is gonna trip a boiler?

[QUOTE=+A465B;171084]After reading Mario’s editorial today I felt like it was asking us to give up on meaningful industry change. But somehow I don’t think that was the real protest he was making. Balancing safety, commercial and operational success is a real tall order around the maritime industry, and we all know it. A centuries long trail of disasters and failed shipping companies tells the tale. THAT will not change. But maybe I’ve got it wrong.

I want to learn more about “why” the EL FARO and other casualties have occurred. Resigning ourselves to the equivalent of, [I] “Yeah, like Dudes, they got waaay too close to that gnarly storm when they coulda run the other way or stayed home. That thing was ancient, he was a dope and The Man screwed 'em. Everybody knows THAT” [/I]… teaches exactly squat. What a waste. Don’t go there.

We’ve been reminded there is no awesome solution for external risks, market conditions, greed or the frailties of the human condition. But like, Dudes, there’s no getting around the fact that they rule our lives, so we just have to manage them better. Maybe that was the idea?

The young people that I work with, afloat and ashore, are wonderful Even the nasty old coots aren’t too bad. They all deserve to know that “Why” an accident happened is wicked important. Even those little things that “contributed” along the way. At least then there is a chance they might be able to prevent an accident in their own lives.

Don’t turn your nose up at those “investigators” and what will play out in court. Because I think it is our only chance to learn this time around.

In this most imperfect of Worlds.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. We all want to know why this happened and we all want to avoid accidents in our occupation. Especially a big one like this.

Will we learn anything more than what we already know? To know the limits involved and to recognize irrational thinking? And to cover your ass? I believe that with an open mind the answer is yes, and this may ultimately be more beneficial than industry changes.

[QUOTE=mvittone;171056]On the lifeboat issue - I just meant to imply that the discussions about open vs. closed lifeboats are irrelevant to this particular mishap. Freefall are better than open - I agree. But bringing up the lifeboats as a serious part of this mishap is a little like arguing for better seat belts as an answer to drunk driving mishaps. What you want to focus on first is stopping the crash.[/QUOTE]

I’d like to title this response, “We’re not going to learn anything from Mario’s editorial”-- just messing with you Mario.

Still, Mario, I respectfully disgaree with the overall attitude of your editorial and title. There’s a lot to learn. Admittedly, all casualties can ultimately be reduced to a human factor failure. But there’s a lot to learn tracing it back. Did the vessel set sail in fully functioning condition, was any of required power/propulsion redundancy system compromised? Was seaworthiness compromised? Hatches leak on previous voyages? Propulsion go down on previous voyages? What was the state of her surveys and such? Were warning signs there? Was this vessel completely and validly up to the standards, and I don’t mean were their ABS docs signed? How did the necessary safety systems work, or not work? Will it be found inside the ship possibly, removed for heavy weather? Would a vessel built under the current requirements, or even the ten year ago requirements have done better, should additional measures be put in place for other old vessels? How did the SAR deployments work, can anything be improved? All aspects will be in the investigation if it is to fulfill it’s required function. And given the challenge of physical evidence being difficult to obtain, sure, we may have limited certainty in some findings, but it is worth the effort.

But, I can see and even have sympathy with a slightly dismissive attitude to any heavy weather related failures, it presents a single point of failure that can be removed and voila–the bad thing would not (likely) have occurred. But that’s some lazy thinking, in my opinion, and if I saw that on an ISM Root cause report, I’d send it back. Every casualty typically is a set of several casualty occurrences that can each be examined. Every casualty also carries within it, near-misses that we should examine, that are often left out. Chalk it up to weather? The same attitude could be expressed on the BOUNTY investigation, but I recall you stuck through that investigation. Admittedly, not a great deal to learn there. Maybe that situation informs your attitude on this one, I dunno. But we can’t let a hopeless cynicism sink in. Think about the MARINE ELECTRIC, similar situation (forum please don’t bother comparison-just making a point) look at all the impacts that investigation and analysis brought, including, I might add the CG rescue swimmer program you belonged to.

The point I’m trying to suggest is, this is a full on failure to its maximum extent and needs looking into. Loss of an inspected, classed ship, no survivors. As such, it represents in its own way a comple failure of prevention and response based efforts to mitigate a known hazard. This investigation has many angles to look at and we’re going to take that journey anways, I’d offer that we all keep an open mind and try to get something out of it.

Mr. Vittone’s article makes some accurate and worthy points and casts a light of pragmatism on this unfortunate incident.

That said, I do believe he missed the mark on his more general and broad assertion that there is nothing to be learned from this incident.

Mr. Vittone’s article, in my opinion, accurately painted this incident as one of risk management. The decision to depart Jacksonville, the decision to not take a route through Old Bahama Channel, and others are examples of risk management decisions taken by the Master and TOTE shore side operations staff that are now subject to criticism in light of the results.

Where I believe Mr. Vittone has missed the mark to some degree is the broad assertion that nothing can be learned from the incident, despite the fact that this incident (like other similar incidents in the past) offers a sober lesson in risk management and for that reason is worthy of a thorough investigation and comprehensive reporting.

While I agree with most of his statements, I think it would be a pity if the only that comes out of the EL FARO incident is grief, a few insurance settlements and a nonfiction book or two telling the stories of the crew. All of these things should come out of the incident but should not be the exclusive results.

Anyone who is a professional risk manager (and by the way that includes every ship’s officer in my opinion) can benefit from studying the decisions taken that contributed to an incident such as this if for nothing else than demonstration of the most pertinent point I believe Mr. Vittone put forth in his article, namely “the illusion of control”.

I have sailed and met thousand of masters during the course of my career. One common link that I noticed between them is on top of being under economic pressure; they tend to be devoted to it. Devotion is the fact or state of being ardently dedicated and loyal to the commitment of being onboard ship-owner interests. The line is fine between that commitment and being in conflict of interest against safety. Stretched too much one way or the other, there will be consequences. My humble view is that I prefer to stretch it on the side of safety.

Since devotion is here to stay, one way to solve part of that human factor is to implement compulsory regulations. As an example, the FAA, I believe, have implemented no-fly-zone in the vicinity of adverse weather conditions. Aircrafts are deviated to more suitable air traffic lanes and pilots must comply. The same type of regulation or no-sailing-zone could be applied to vessels sailing in the vicinity of hurricanes. That way, there would be no doubt of the action to be taken and by so, there would be no justification to address.

Economic pressure enhance by devotion restrain captains to put the brakes when is time. If they’re not protected by regulations, sooner than later devotion will engulf another one in the statistics.

[QUOTE=+A465B;171084]After reading Mario’s editorial today I felt like it was asking us to give up on meaningful industry change. But somehow I don’t think that was the real protest he was making. Balancing safety, commercial and operational success is a real tall order around the maritime industry, and we all know it. A centuries long trail of disasters and failed shipping companies tells the tale. THAT will not change. But maybe I’ve got it wrong.

.[/QUOTE]

No Sir, I was asking us to give up hope of meaningful change. There are so many things that can. Better gear, safer ships, and more responsible ownership. What I was saying (implying really) is that all the things that may have led to this incident: The decision to sail, the route chosen, the condition of the ship, pressure from the home office, money, schedules, breakdowns in BRM, breakdowns in comms, fatigue, improper inspection protocols, whatever the “cause” will be attributed to (and it will be a long chain of things I am sure) will not be things that are new to us. They will not be things we haven’t learned before. We (the collective maritime we) are making the same mistakes over and over again. We won’t learn anything (new) from the reports. Same mistakes - different ship.

The last great gains to be made in vessel safety will occur between our ears. We have to change the way we think. (Again - the collective we - and by “we” I mostly mean ship’s management in the home office) Getting away with before is not the same thing as being successful. Complacency has no place in vessel ops.

[QUOTE=Kraken;171083]I just want a discussion around something we know as a fact. The safety equipment was ancient. It’s like drunk driving in a car with only a 2-point seat belt when a 3-point seat belt have been around for 30 years, why make a bad situation worse?

If it’s going off topic just let me know and I will stay clear of the discussion.[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely correct. The equipment was ancient. Open lifeboats are ridiculous and I consider them a litmus test for a company’s overall safety culture. If a company is too cheap to buy their team the best gear, then they don’t value human life the way I think they should. And - their business sense is as flawed as anything else.

These discussion do need to take place. My job is to help start long discussions by saying a few words. I think my next spot will be about EPIRBS and Signalling. Clearly - there was distress before it was called in. There has to be a better way.

[QUOTE=Topsail;171098]I have sailed and met thousand of masters during the course of my career. One common link that I noticed between them is on top of being under economic pressure; they tend to be devoted to it. Devotion is the fact or state of being ardently dedicated and loyal to the commitment of being onboard ship-owner interests. The line is fine between that commitment and being in conflict of interest against safety. Stretched too much one way or the other, there will be consequences. My humble view is that I prefer to stretch it on the side of safety.

Since devotion is here to stay, one way to solve part of that human factor is to implement compulsory regulations. As an example, the FAA, I believe, have implemented no-fly-zone in the vicinity of adverse weather conditions. Aircrafts are deviated to more suitable air traffic lanes and pilots must comply. The same type of regulation or no-sailing-zone could be applied to vessels sailing in the vicinity of hurricanes. That way, there would be no doubt of the action to be taken and by so, there would be no justification to address.

Economic pressure enhance by devotion restrain captains to put the brakes when is time. If they’re not protected by regulations, sooner than later devotion will engulf another one in the statistics.[/QUOTE]

Airline pilots generally do not have weather “no-fly” zones mandated by the FAA. Routes are changed for weather but that’s up to the pilot. Early in the jet age after 1957, there were a number of crashes due to pilots who were used to slogging through thunderstorms at 15,000 ft. altitude at 200 kts. airspeed without radar and tried to do the same in a jet at 350 kts. at 35,000 ft. They got “upset” and didn’t recover in time. We stopped flying into thunderstorms on landing and at high altitude. Jets at high altitude in the tops of a thunderstorm fly about as well as a 790’ freighter on one engine in a hurricane. There continue to be aircraft losses for this reason despite the solution being found 50 years ago. In 2009, a “first world” Air France flight was lost in the Central Atlantic. It was a two-man crew augmented by an extra pilot due to the flight length. Fifteen minutes before the heavy Airbus A 330 entered the tops of the thunderstorms of the Inter-tropical Convergence Zone, the Captain left the cockpit for his “break” ? ? ?. The airspeed sensors iced up do to design defects and several stability augmentation systems tripped off. The Captain returned and stood in the cockpit while the junior 1st officer occupying his seat held the control “joy stick” full aft causing the aircraft to stall and crash into the sea within 2 minutes. A similar incident happened last year in Indonesia with a Captain with over 20,000 hrs.

What are we to do about lapses in judgements like this ?

I’m totally with Vittone on this one.

It’s not that there won’t be lots of little things, arranged in their own particular way, that makes this tragedy somehow “unique” from the others like it. There will likely be plenty of fresh lessons-learned contained in the various reports that could conceivably be useful or helpful to us and so, on that level, it is nominally “helpful.”

What I think Vittone said, very clearly, is that there won’t be any truly new revelations here, nothing that hasn’t been seen before numerous times. When we stare at the smaller details we completely lose sight of the bigger picture, and it was that bigger picture that got El Faro.

The distinction between a problem and a predicament needs to be understood. El Faro didn’t have a solvable problem or two that, once solved, would have allowed them safe passage. And that’s a very bitter pill for most people to swallow because we’re generally hard-wired to want in the worst way to identify and fix problems, thereby making things better/safer. Why wouldn’t we? Our lives may be on the line. It also makes us feel purposeful and good.

El Faro was, instead, in a predicament that they ultimately could not get out of: they wound up in close proximity to a storm with very deadly potential and as a result they needed everything to go right for them to make it out the other side. Their safety margin became steadily thinner with each mile they advanced, eventually becoming razor thin. Everything didn’t go right (they had a problem or problems) and they didn’t make it out. This predicament was largely of human origin, and no amount of equipment or survival training would have made a difference in this particular instance because of the strength of the storm and where they were in relation to it. If it was survivable, in the strictest sense, it would have required a miracle.

In the end it’s a relatively simple case of getting much too close to something that can easily kill you. Many times it won’t, but sometimes it will, and you can never be sure in advance when you’ll get away with it and when you won’t. Even if they had made it to San Juan in one piece with sea stories to tell it wouldn’t have changed the fact that it was still too risky. No one ever likes being told this, so mostly no one ever does.

The only sensible thing to do is use significantly larger safety margins when facing a high-consequence risk. That, however, costs time and money, up front, and gets to the real heart of the issue. Same for the Marine Electric, and the same for most others. I don’t have much confidence that this persistent pattern will change.

Why?

In 1986 NASA blew up the Challenger because they wouldn’t listen to the aerospace engineers’ warnings and chose to take chances they shouldn’t have. They had all the information they ever needed to avoid it, but just couldn’t help themselves.

In 2003 they did the same thing again with the Columbia. Sure, it was exterior tiles that time instead of booster o-rings. So what. Different technical problem, but the exact same decision-making failure (by some very bright people) as the last time that can be accurately paraphrased thusly: “yeah, we know there’s risk, but it’s always worked before. It’ll work again.” How many times have we all heard that one, or said it ourselves? It is a death trap for the ages, and will remain so.

If we can’t bring ourselves to stop taking such big unnecessary chances then we shouldn’t be surprised when we periodically get outcomes like El Faro. They’re baked right into the cake given general industry-wide attitudes about safety management. Everybody’s for it in theory. In practice, the ranks thin out pretty quickly, particularly as those up-front costs mount. There’s a pain threshold for everything, and everybody needs a pay check.

I don’t think that any true villainy or incompetence was at work here. Just garden-variety human-factor stuff. All the ISM Code in the world wouldn’t have stopped this one.

[QUOTE=Jamesbrown;171094] Think about the MARINE ELECTRIC, similar situation (forum please don’t bother comparison-just making a point)[/QUOTE]

Sorry can’t help but make a comparison.

Look under “General Conclusions” Page 120 of the Marine Electric Casualty Report. The VERY FIRST conclusion is:

“By virtue of its relationship to the vessel oweners, ABS [I][B]cannot by considered impartial [/B][/I]in spite of the many years experience of their surveyors”.

Now flip back to page 86 of that report and read the findings under “ABS INSPECTION ROLE”. Does any of that sound familiar?

No? Go look over the documents here: USCG’s Alternate Compliance Program.

Now does page 86 sound familiar??

In my endless roundabout attempt to learn about those elusive hurricane standards and regulations, Topsail’s post above finally fills me in on the reality of things: they basically don’t existent. As I mentioned to one of yours, your world is one in which were you highwaymen there would be no need for speed limits nor yield signs, since only the variations in road conditions and the experience of the driver would dictate whether one should slow down or stop. And it does seem to work most of the time. But, yes, I whisper one little vote for some type of ‘compulsory no-fly zone’ regulation. Like with the airlines. It won’t be a cure-all (aka AF 447). But at least all parties will be on some kind of common legal footing.

To some people’s joy and everyone else’s indifference I’m gonna step back into the real world for a good while this weekend. Or at least my version of it. Yours was a pleasant planet, I learned a good deal stuff even if I had to struggle with the new language and culture. I’ll happily come back.

To John, the administrator, kudos for choosing Morro Bay as your headquarters. My favorite place between SF and LA. No correct that, between SF and Mexico. Love the Rock, the fish and chips, even the flying gullrats. Never once seen the sun. You gotta work on that.

Take care all.

Eidas